Billy Graham

[Amanah]

Bro Chris, believing in Acts 2:38 is OP 101.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro Chris, believing in Acts 2:38 is OP 101.

Amanah, no one is challenging Acts 2:38. However, I'd caution us not to assume that we know all there is to know about it.

For example. A "formula" is defined as:

for·mu·la.
[ˈfôrmyələ]
NOUN
1. a mathematical relationship or rule expressed in symbols.
2. a fixed form of words, especially one used in particular contexts or as a conventional usage:

Now, let me give a friendly challenge, because I love and do so appreciate you sister, and I mean no insult, or mean spiritedness towards you. You're greatly appreciated more than you know. But here is a friendly challenge....

Please find a "formula" with regards to water baptism in the NT.

Consult not only Acts 2:38. But also Acts 8:16; 10:48, 19:5; and 22:16... and any other verse. You'll note that the name of Jesus is invoked. But... there isn't a formula. And... in the very case of Paul's baptism, Paul (the one being baptized) was the one commanded to call upon the name, not Ananias, the baptizer.

If you study this out meticulously... you'll discover something about Acts 2:38 salvation that doesn't negate anything you already know... but it will expand and reveal so much more about it than what is taught in our formalized and yes, creedal, churches.

And this will also reveal an error that prevails in both Trinitarian and Oneness camps even unto this very day.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amanah, no one is challenging Acts 2:38. However, I'd caution us not to assume that we know all there is to know about it.

For example. A "formula" is defined as:

for·mu·la.
[ˈfôrmyələ]
NOUN
1. a mathematical relationship or rule expressed in symbols.
2. a fixed form of words, especially one used in particular contexts or as a conventional usage:

Now, let me give a friendly challenge, because I love and do so appreciate you sister, and I mean no insult, or mean spiritedness towards you. You're greatly appreciated more than you know. But here is a friendly challenge....

Please find a "formula" with regards to water baptism in the NT.

Consult not only Acts 2:38. But also Acts 8:16; 10:48, 19:5; and 22:16... and any other verse. You'll note that the name of Jesus is invoked. But... there isn't a formula. And... in the very case of Paul's baptism, Paul (the one being baptized) was the one commanded to call upon the name, not Ananias, the baptizer.

If you study this out meticulously... you'll discover something about Acts 2:38 salvation that doesn't negate anything you already know... but it will expand and reveal so much more about it than what is taught in our formalized and yes, creedal, churches.

And this will also reveal an error that prevails in both Trinitarian and Oneness camps even unto this very day.

can you walk it all the way back to pray a sinner's prayer and be saved?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're presupposing that you're the expert and final arbitrator of God's own warnings. You're presupposing that you have it all figured out. And... as a result... you're going to face the same measure of judgment. In other words, if you're going to be so narrow in your judgment... you better have it all together, exact, on point, no error. Absolute perfection in theology... when you stand before Him.

Bro, the above is alluding that we can never have the truth. Chris, what you are actually saying is that the Bible isn't sufficient, and living the best you can under some code of good citizen ethics, just hoping you might get a pass. Faith comes by HEARING the Word of God. Bro, our faith isn't predicated on wishful thinking. Is God bad for tossing the reprobate Billy Graham into a lake of fire? I will be judged according to His Gospel, not mine. So, we need to navigate the path, find the door that is only opened a crack, and enter in. Bro, Jesus told us to be ye perfect (mature) as the Father in heaven. Bro, instead of belly aching that some joker who made a living off his own personal Jesus, we should take care of ourselves. We do this by doing it book, chapter, and verse. If I get corrected it better be right now. I won't be getting an Bible questions answered at the judgement. Because flip charts and Bibles will be useless on that day. Jesus said few be that find it? Then honey child, we need to be finding it, instead of making excuses for NOT having it.

Originally Posted by Aquila

You see... God is just. The measure with which we measure is the measure we must meet. Some Apostolics you might judge as being loose goose... will enter in on account of having been merciful and loving beyond measure. Many who were so strict in their judgment based on their own human presuppositions of interpretation will be cast out... because they weren't as exact in their theology as they demanded of others.

Bro, the judgement we meet is according to the Bible not me and not you. Loose as a goose? What in the name of logic is that?

Originally Posted by Aquila

It is one thing to believe that this narrow path is God's will, walk in it, and teach it. It is entirely another to play God and judge others by it.

Chris, the above statement makes no logical sense. Teach and walk in the path but don't tell others how to navigate the path? Because it is a mystery even if you are navigating it? This isn't about pride of knowledge. This is about letting people know that blind jokers are wrong, and that one shouldn't gamble with their soul.

Originally Posted by Aquila

It is also dangerous to deny God's sovereignty. Whatever God wills... is just. Even if it seemingly breaks all the rules... as we might know them.

Bro, whatever He wills? When did Jesus or the apostles approach the people with such an attitude? We aren't supposed to be presumptuous with our own feelings. Which we will say we will do this or that, but only seek God's will. Big difference in saying that we follow the Gospel soteriology and teach
others the same, while we aren't sure that it is the only way. Understand?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Give room for error in your own walk. Come at things as one who "believes"... not as one who arrogantly "knows", when in truth... you don't.

Oh, this isn't about not being humble enough? Bro, there is only one truth, not many soteriologies. This isn't rocket science, or some cryptic mystery religion. If I stop someone from putting the barrel of a shotgun in their mouth is that being arrogant? Is it arrogant to convince the person that suicide is just a permanent solution for a temporary problem? Or should I tell them that suicide does work for some? Chris, your emotions are the lion share of your theology?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Because if you demand absolute perfection of others... it will be demanded of you.

Chris, the above comment is where you are missing it. We never spoke about this. Billy Graham didn't even believe in Bible soteriology, even other Trinitarians nailed him on this. This is about God all of a sudden at the last minute allowing a few through the opening who others had to navigate carefully. There were those who bore the heat of the day, worked hard but were upset that those who came in late were given the SAME PAY. They weren't paid MORE, they received the same wage. That's God's mercy.

[Amanah]

Siinner's prayer:

"Dear God, I know I’m a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness. I believe Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe that He died for my sin and that you raised Him to life. I want to trust Him as my Savior and follow Him as Lord, from this day forward. Guide my life and help me to do your will. I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen."

https://peacewithgod.net/

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Siinner's prayer:

"Dear God, I know I’m a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness. I believe Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe that He died for my sin and that you raised Him to life. I want to trust Him as my Savior and follow Him as Lord, from this day forward. Guide my life and help me to do your will. I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen."

https://peacewithgod.net/

The sinners prayer is a prayer of repentance. However, you'll notice that they didn't have altar calls for the "sinners prayer" in Acts. Instead, the repentant were called to the water. And it was while standing in the water that the sinner called upon the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16), and it was this act that remitted sin... not some mystic "formula" spoken by some initiated cleric.

In establishing "formulas" both the Trinitarian and Oneness camps have drifted a step away from Scripture. Baptism was the time to call upon the name of the Lord, it wasn't a time for liturgical formulas. Baptism was their altar call.

With that being said... regardless of what words are muttered over a person in water baptism... the big question is... Was the repentant soul calling upon the name of Jesus when baptized??? If not, the baptism was ineffectual regardless of the man made "formula" spoken over them.

To deny this is to essentially agree to the notion that one's salvation is predicated upon the strict set of words pronounced over them by another. It becomes no less beholden to human priestly intercession than needing a priest to forgive sins before one can be saved. In such an understanding, one's salvation is entirely dependent upon, even predicated upon, the words spoken by... a stranger. That is lunacy and flies in the face of the repentant individual needing only to call on the Lord, relying on Christ's finished work alone. Water baptism becomes a sacrament delivering salvation based on the words used by a cleric... not the sincere seeking of the lost and pleading soul for the remission of sin.

In our house church, when we baptize a person everyone calls upon the name of the Lord in prayer. The saints are calling on the name and praying for the salvation of the convert in the water. And the one in the water is calling upon the name of the Lord for their salvation. And in this... their sins are remitted as they obey and are buried with Christ in the waters of baptism. Their salvation is not on account of some "formula". THIS understanding is far more "Apostolic", and agrees more with the multiple references in Acts, than our imitating the Trinitarians and trying to establish a "formula"... that doesn't exist.

As I read the SCRIPTURES water baptism appears to be more primitive than most realize. There isn't a "formula". It is a time of prayer and repentance, not a time for ritual and the prescribed mutterings of priests.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, the above is alluding that we can never have the truth. Chris, what you are actually saying is that the Bible isn't sufficient, and living the best you can under some code of good citizen ethics, just hoping you might get a pass. Faith comes by HEARING the Word of God. Bro, our faith isn't predicated on wishful thinking. Is God bad for tossing the reprobate Billy Graham into a lake of fire? I will be judged according to His Gospel, not mine. So, we need to navigate the path, find the door that is only opened a crack, and enter in. Bro, Jesus told us to be ye perfect (mature) as the Father in heaven. Bro, instead of belly aching that some joker who made a living off his own personal Jesus, we should take care of ourselves. We do this by doing it book, chapter, and verse. If I get corrected it better be right now. I won't be getting an Bible questions answered at the judgement. Because flip charts and Bibles will be useless on that day. Jesus said few be that find it? Then honey child, we need to be finding it, instead of making excuses for NOT having it.

The Bible is indeed perfect. The question is, is our understanding of that Scripture perfect? Do you know everything to be known from the Scripture? Have you nothing left to learn? Will you find yourself never in need of correction regarding your understanding? If so, why do you study? Why do you continue to dig deeper and deeper through prayer for greater truth, deeper understanding, and a more perfect vision of the holy?

If you have it all nailed down, close your Bible and put it on the shelf and pat yourself on the back. I've discovered that the Bible is like a bottomless well of living waters. With every understanding an infinite world of new truth is opened. We'll be discovering things about the Scripture and God Himself throughout the countless eons of eternity. And everyone one of us will discover things that we were so sure of as being wrong, or at best, superficial when compared to the eternal substance.

Bro, the judgement we meet is according to the Bible not me and not you. Loose as a goose? What in the name of logic is that?

Again, you presuppose that you know everything the Bible has to offer. And you presuppose that everything you know is right. And then you measure others in accordance to that presupposition. And therefore, for your sake, I pray you're correct. Because if you're off just one jot or tittle... your own words will condemn you.

Chris, the above statement makes no logical sense. Teach and walk in the path but don't tell others how to navigate the path? Because it is a mystery even if you are navigating it? This isn't about pride of knowledge. This is about letting people know that blind jokers are wrong, and that one shouldn't gamble with their soul.

I share with people "what the Lord has show me", "what I believe the Bible to say". I do not position myself as having all knowledge, or an infallible interpretation. I'm often the first to say, "I don't know, but here's what I think based on these texts..." There's a difference between approaching the preaching of the Gospel from a position of "know it all" and a position of humility that says, "This is what I believe..." What I see so often is men draw a very harsh and firm line, it might be in regards to Sabbath or divine name and how it is pronounced, and they say, "Well, this is what the Bible says!" They shift responsibility for their interpretation onto the Bible. They don't have the guts to own it themselves and be truthful. They don't have the guts to say, "This is what I believe the Bible to say..."

So, having explained the above, I firmly teach Acts 2:38 as being the Apostolic application of the Gospel. I don't see any "formula" in Scripture, Trinitarian or Oneness. I see men calling on the name of the Lord at their baptism, and I see the promise that if they do so, their sins will be remitted. When Trinitarians and Oneness theologians begin bickering over "formula", I just shake my head. Because both are wrong, wrong, wrong. Oneness comes closer to the truth. But there isn't a "formula" present. I've challenged people to present me with a formula dozens of times... not one has been able to give me the "formula" spoken by the Apostles. What the Scriptures state is that baptism, like everything we are to do, was done in the name of Jesus. What we also see is that it appears that it was at the time of one's baptism that they were to call upon the name of Jesus for their salvation. Their salvation was predicated upon their calling the name, not the one baptizing them calling the name or repeating some exacting formula of words. In other words, baptism was far more primitive than most realize. Baptism was their altar call.

Bro, whatever He wills? When did Jesus or the apostles approach the people with such an attitude? We aren't supposed to be presumptuous with our own feelings. Which we will say we will do this or that, but only seek God's will. Big difference in saying that we follow the Gospel soteriology and teach
others the same, while we aren't sure that it is the only way. Understand?

Is God sovereign? Yes or no? Does He alone have the power to have mercy when He desires to have mercy, and not to have mercy where He desires not to have mercy? The Scriptures testify to a sovereign God. Now, we are not sovereign. We must preach it and teach it as we best understand it. However, God alone can do as He wills, and the Scriptures are firm in that He retains that sovereign right as God. All too often we believe that God is beholden to our interpretations of Scripture. He isn't. He laughs in the Heavens at our vain conceits in which we think He agrees with us. We must give Him the room to be and do as sovereignly as He so desires... else we make Him a Heavenly sky-elf dependent upon our various denominational interpretations of Scripture.

Oh, this isn't about not being humble enough? Bro, there is only one truth, not many soteriologies. This isn't rocket science, or some cryptic mystery religion. If I stop someone from putting the barrel of a shotgun in their mouth is that being arrogant? Is it arrogant to convince the person that suicide is just a permanent solution for a temporary problem? Or should I tell them that suicide does work for some? Chris, your emotions are the lion share of your theology?

I'm not going to deny that my emotions can play a part in my theology. In fact, I've yet to see someone who's emotions don't play a part in their approach to Scripture. For example, above, you're sharing what you think based on what you sincerely feel about the truth. You're post is no less infected by your emotions than my own. Only, I'm honest enough to admit it.

Chris, the above comment is where you are missing it. We never spoke about this. Billy Graham didn't even believe in Bible soteriology, even other Trinitarians nailed him on this. This is about God all of a sudden at the last minute allowing a few through the opening who others had to navigate carefully. There were those who bore the heat of the day, worked hard but were upset that those who came in late were given the SAME PAY. They weren't paid MORE, they received the same wage. That's God's mercy.

I'm not going to play God. I will admit that I'm hesitant to say that Billy Graham made it. I'll admit that Billy Graham had a far different theological understanding than ours, and perhaps even his fellow Trinitarians. In fact, it would appear that Billy Graham was one to not pick a given camp's interpretation of the Scripture, and instead he owned what he concluded from Scripture, right or wrong, and preached it. In my examination, it's almost patch work. One of the last old-timers to just preach what he believes he sees in the Bible, without being beholden to a systematic theology or theological school of thought. To me, that is far more sincere than the cackling robed theologians in any camp of organized religion who demand strict conformity to their narrow and rigid doctrines and interpretations of men. To follow the Spirit is to be like the wind. The religious will call you inconsistent. The religious will call you misguided. But this is only because the religious can't see the ways of the Spirit.

Back to my hesitance over Graham's salvation.

I'm hesitant to say that He was saved. That is why I prayed that God have mercy on his soul.

What is really happening here is that many reading the words that I'm saying aren't willing to grant God such sovereignty in their personal understanding. I am willing to give God that much sovereignty, and so, I do. God's Word affirms God's sovereignty throughout. And it consistently affirms that the wisdom of men is foolishness to God. Every chart, and theological treatise, systematic theology, or creed is woefully insufficient in God's sight. Our best systematic theology sounds like preschooler gibberish to God, and is rife with inconsistencies, errors, and human notions that we don't even realize are present. When we really get into the Spirit and look down at all our theologies we realize that they're all the same. They're all the best human attempts to comprehend... the incomprehensible. And if you've mastered it and know all truth, I tip my hat to you.

[Aquila]

Preach it in the fullness of what you know, what you have experienced, and what you understand.

But don't be tricked into playing God.

[Aquila]

God knows angles on things that we've never imagined. Angles on things that our petty human theologies have yet to even discover, or admit.

For example, most of us realize that Christ is our righteousness. We realize that His righteousness is imputed to us by faith. And standing justified before God, we stand as though we never sinned. Why? Christ's righteous life is counted as our own. He lived sinlessly so that on the cross He might become sin, and that we might become the very righteousness of God through His imputed righteousness.

Now... was Christ's baptism perfect? Yes. He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, correct? Yes. But... for whom? Might He have been water baptized for all the sincere souls that would come to Him in the shadows of oppressive human religion and interpretation, with all the squabbling regarding "formula"??? You see, God can look at any aspect of Christ's life and say, "I'll count that in your favor." Is God required to do so? Nope. God is sovereign. But God can see angles in the Scripture that we can't or might not have seen yet? We might be surprised to see some Christian souls in Heaven we'd have never imagined would have made it. And when we converse with them, they might very well testify that they wouldn't have made it... if God hadn't judged the thoughts and intents of their heart, and had mercy by counting Christ's work on their own behalf.

[Aquila]

I'm not arguing to water down doctrine. GOD FORBID! We must preach the fullness of what we know and understand, and have experienced ourselves. However, we must be humble enough to say, "I believe my dear seeker, that if you wish to have absolute assurance, obey the fullness of the Acts 2:38 gospel." They will either receive it or not. In fact, even if you hardline them and say, "It's Acts 2:38 or hell! Your grandma, she didn't make it! Your mom, she didn't make it! Your dad? He didn't make it! And if you don't obey what I'm telling you, neither will you!" Regardless of our approach, the individual must choose to receive it or not.

However, my approach takes into consideration God's sovereignty. If a seeking soul asks me, "But what about my grandpa? He was a devout Methodist minister. Prayed for hours every day. Preached all he knew. Wept long into the night over lost souls. Chris, do you think he made it???" I can say, "I pray that God have mercy on all sincere men of God who may not have understood the fullness of this truth. Our God is a just and merciful, sovereign God. There is no better God to entrust the soul of a loved one. Allow God to be God, and believe for the best. But as for right here, and right now, I believe your grandpa would rejoice to know what's being revealed to you right now. In fact, your grandpa might have prayed that God reveal all truth to you. And this very well might be the answer to your grandpa's prayers. Now, will you not come down to the water with me and obey Acts 2:38?"

There is a distinct difference in the approach. One is humble and allows God to be God. The other insists that God must not only agree with every jot and tittle of our own interpretation, but robs Him of His sovereignty to judge as is determined best in His infinite grace and wisdom.

What is at stake here isn't what you feel, what I feel, or what either of us think about the Scriptures.

What is at stake here is how sovereign are we willing to allow God to be?