Trinitarian Commentaries vs. Discourse Analysis (E

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
(John 3:8 ESV)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 KJV)

The winde bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it commeth, and whither it goeth: so is euery man that is borne of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 Geneva)

the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
(John 3:8 YLT)

The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.
(John 3:8 LITV)

The wind blows where it pleases, and you hear its sound; but you do not know whence it comes and whither it goes; such is every man who is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 Lamsa NT)

The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 ASV)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 RV)

The wind [where it wants blows], and its sound you hear, but you know not from what place it comes, and where it goes; so is every one being born of the spirit.
(John 3:8 ABP)

The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 DRB)

Every version I come across, except the ESV, reads essentially "so is every one". The ESV reads "so it is with everyone". Which is correct? Even those based on the WH/Nestle-Aland texts read "so is every one" and not "so it is with every one".

The clause in question reads thus in Greek:

οὕτως ἐστὶ πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ Πνεύματος.

It looks to me like the Greek is saying "so is all who" etc. In other words, it is not "so it is with". It and with aren't in the text anywhere. Perhaps the ESV is using a different Greek text than everyone else seems to be using?

*First, yes, I could provide farrrr more than a mere "5 examples" of the KJV ambiguity. Oh, and you do realize you've already set up the KJV as the standard by which all other translations should conform don't you? This is the very root definition of circular argumentation...& yet another reason I rarely ever post here.

*Second, here's the actual adverbial clause (literally translated) Greek text (NA28) that was used by the ESV:

οὕτως (adverb meaning, "in the same manner") ἐστὶν (present, active, indicative, 3rd Person, singular form of the "to be" verb, meaning "is") πᾶς (nominative, masculine, singular adjective meaning, "all who") ὁ (nominative, masculine, singular article, meaning "the, this, that, [or] who") γεγεννημένος (perfect, passive, participle, nominative, masculine, singular verb, meaning "has been conceived") ἐκ (preposition governing the genitive case article/noun, meaning, "out of") τοῦ (genitive, neuter, singular article, meaning "the") πνεύματος (articular-definitive genitive, neuter, singular noun, meaning "Spirit").

*Literal translation: "in the same manner is all who have been born out of the Spirit." The pre-verbal masculine singular article, as well as the participle is accurately translated "who" in this text based upon the masculine singular. This is simple Greek I & an excellent example of why preachers should take the time to invest in Greek-proper. Once again, the ESV is absolutely spot-on - and the KJV does a good job here also.

*Could sit here all day doing this, but, simply too busy for this. The links above provide ample evidence(s) of the KJV errors & mistakes to the sincere truth-seeker. God bless.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Esaias

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
(John 3:13 ESV)

And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.
(John 3:13 RV)

And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
(John 3:13 ASV)

No man has ascended to heaven, except he who came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.
(John 3:13 Lamsa NT)

And no one has ascended into the heaven, except the one from out of the heaven descending -- the son of man, the one being in the heaven.
(John 3:13 ABP)

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
(John 3:13 KJV)

καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ.

Even the RV and the ASV include "who is in heaven", yet the ESV does not? Is the Son of man in heaven? Or not? Which Greek text is correct?

*Infamous textual variant. See NA28 & UBS-5 for MSS evidences either way. Simply, some of the earliest MSS do not contain the clause in question - while many late one's do. It's a manuscript issue, not a mere translational option.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Speaking of vagueness...

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
(1 John 5:18 ESV)

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
(1 John 5:18 KJV)

???

*Silly .

*Again, the links above explain all of this for those who will take the time to do the hard work of research-proper. God bless to all.

[Esaias]

The Greek text you parsed does not read "so it is with everyone who", all the other translations read more correctly identifying the who as the subject of the verb.

But, since you don't want to substantiate the claim you made about " numerous instances" where the KJV is vague, inaccurate, etc I guess the thread is done.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The Greek text you parsed does not read "so it is with everyone who", all the other translations read more correctly identifying the who as the subject of the verb.

*Ummm, yes it does. You simply don't know what you're talking about (btw, I did not "parse" anything - the Greek text is already parsed).

Originally Posted by Esaias

But, since you don't want to substantiate the claim you made about " numerous instances" where the KJV is vague, inaccurate, etc I guess the thread is done.

*Not worth my time. KJVO is patently absurd & farcical.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by rdp

*Ummm, yes it does. You simply don't know what you're talking about (btw, I did not "parse" anything - the Greek text is already parsed).



*Not worth my time. KJVO is patently absurd & farcical.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Esaias

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by rdp

For someone who has made it abundantly clear that it isn't worth your time to engage in the discussion, any headaches resulting from banging your head on the floor would be likely self-inflicted.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by rdp

*Ummm, yes it does. You simply don't know what you're talking about (btw, I did not "parse" anything - the Greek text is already parsed).



*Not worth my time. KJVO is patently absurd & farcical.

Which leaves you in the no man's land of multiversionism.

What a lousy trade off.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Which leaves you in the no man's land of multiversionism.

What a lousy trade off.

Sean, you are a retard.

[Sean]

Praise the Lord , DB and glad to have your hot temper back.

You entertain me alot.