Trumpcare: Pre-existing Conditions Not Covered

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Intent? There's not a bit of difference between a guy watching a porn video to satisfy his lust and a guy closing his eyes to imagine the same thing to satisfy his lust.

Porn isn't the baseline. Would you say that what you and your wife do in private is pornographic? No. It's making love. And so, if you think about making love, it's not pornography.

smh So your commentary of Matthew 5:28 is that Jesus was saying it's only sin to look and lust after a woman if you want to use and exploit her??

I'm saying that intention is everything. If you're single and your are totally smitten with a single woman's beauty and you desire her... you haven't sinned. Walk up to her. Introduce yourself. Get to know her. Find out if she's as beautiful a person on the inside as she is on the outside.

But if you see a beautiful woman and all you desire is her body... that's sin.

Oh, so Jesus was only talking about married men, right? Somewhere Jesus later mentioned that His words there aren't applicable to single men.

I'm only saying that Jesus specifically states that the action described is "adultery". That implies that the man is married and the woman he's gazing at isn't his wife.

I'd never tell a single male that he's sinned for being blown over by a woman's beauty and that it is wrong to desire her if she's single too. I'd expect him to maybe get to know her.

Sexual attraction is not the same as using your mind to enact a porn scene.

Elaborate. I want to know how you are distinguishing the two. I might agree. By the way, imagining making love (which is a perfectly natural and normal desire) isn't porn. Why is porn your base line?

And uptight, don't forget uptight!

Oh, thanks. You're right. Uptight.

I guess I should be more like you and others who go even further and watch porn with their spouses and trade partners.

Wow. You're really running with this. Who brought up watching porn with their spouse and wife swapping? I'm starting to wonder about you.

Man, this whole bringing my flesh into subjection is just a bummer! Paul was so uptight!

Actually, he wasn't. Paul stated,

1 Corinthians 7:9 (ESV)
9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Notice, Paul doesn't say that if they cannot exercise self-control they have sinned and must repent. Paul specifically acknowledges that some urges can be beyond one's control. And Paul implies that it is normal to have those desires and encourages that the individual who does burn with passions they can't control should marry... not repent.

Now. Obviously whatever action they were unable to control was obviously not fornication, that would demand repentance. They were single, so it obviously wasn't adultery. A little common sense is needed here... they obviously couldn't control their desire for physical companionship. Paul goes on to describe this condition as one in which the individual "burns with passion". They have desires and needs that must be met. They need to seek a spouse. It's all common sense.

You have kids don't you n david? Did you tell your kids that sexual thoughts, desires, etc. are sin?

What happens when a boy has completely associated the desire for a woman with being sinful? He's sworn to God that he'll never think it again for the 10,000th time and now he's on his knees feeling like he's failed God to the point wherein there's no hope. The psychological ramifications can open the door to an abomination. I'm lovingly warning you. If it becomes obvious that your son digs girls... he stares a bit too long... or daydreams after a woman walks by. Don't rebuke him. Don't tell him he's a monster for being a man. Assure him that his feelings and desires are normal and healthy. They indicate he's becoming a man. Encourage him to have the courage to introduce himself and get to know girls. And assure him that on some random day he'll unexpectedly meet... "the one" who will capture his thoughts, dreams, and fantasies for the rest of his life.

Help him embrace being a man.

Read it again. They didn't fantasize sexually about each other chapter 4, which was after the marriage at the end of chapter 3.

Bro, I just read it from chapter 1 verse 1 to the end of chapter three. There are quite a few sexual euphemisms indicating what they are thinking about before the end of chapter 3. Here's one. Careful, you might have to visualize it in your head to really grasp what she's saying....

Song of Solomon 2:3
As an apple tree among the trees of the forest,
so is my beloved among the young men.
With great delight I sat in his shadow,
and his fruit was sweet to my taste.

Oh, the end of chapter three isn't the wedding. It is the arrival of the king for the wedding. The wedding actually begins in chapter 4 as the groom looks into the yes of his bride and begins admiring her beauty.

Again, finding someone attractive and putting that person in your own private porn show are two different things. Sin always presents itself as something "normal and healthy." What is normal and healthy isn't always holy, and that's what blows your argument away.

Again, why is your baseline always porn? Sex isn't porn. Thoughts about sex aren't porn. Making love isn't porn. Thoughts about making love aren't born. Porn is porn. Don't let the devil define what is holy and beautiful.

One sentence doesn't match the other. Can't claim both.

I honestly don't think you read them closely.

It's even normal and healthy to have sexual thoughts and desires about the woman you want to marry.

This sentence implies that the young man is unmarried and the young woman is unmarried. It is simply saying that sexual thoughts and desires for the woman one plans to marry is healthy and normal. In fact, it's a beautiful and holy desire. And to reserve fulfillment of that desire for your wedding night is also beautiful and holy.

What is sin is when a married man gazes upon a woman who isn't his wife and has sexual thoughts and desires that he intends to act upon.

I think it's obvious. The man is married and looking on a woman who isn't his wife with desire. Sin.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You have kids don't you n david? Did you tell your kids that sexual thoughts, desires, etc. are sin?

What happens when a boy has completely associated the desire for a woman with being sinful? He's sworn to God that he'll never think it again for the 10,000th time and now he's on his knees feeling like he's failed God to the point wherein there's no hope. The psychological ramifications can open the door to an abomination. I'm lovingly warning you. If it becomes obvious that your son digs girls... he stares a bit too long... or daydreams after a woman walks by. Don't rebuke him. Don't tell him he's a monster for being a man. Assure him that his feelings and desires are normal and healthy. They indicate he's becoming a man. Encourage him to have the courage to introduce himself and get to know girls. And assure him that on some random day he'll unexpectedly meet... "the one" who will capture his thoughts, dreams, and fantasies for the rest of his life.

Help him embrace being a man.

I don't have a son, but if I did, I wouldn't tell him the lie your pastor told you.

You can twist scripture to try and excuse your carnal desires, but the bottom line is fantasizing about sex with a woman in your mind in order to satisfy your carnal desire is no different than watching it on a tv or computer screen.

"Flee youthful lusts."

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

"O let the evil of the wicked come to an end, but establish the righteous; For the righteous God tries the hearts and minds."

"Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer."

"Examine me, O LORD, and try me; Test my mind and my heart."

"Lord, all my desire is before You; And my sighing is not hidden from You."

"Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart."

"You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Not at all. Again, not everything "normal and healthy" is holy. You (or your pastor) cannot claim that fantasizing about sex with a woman in your mind is okay because it's not lust. Fantasizing is lust is sin. Sorrynotsorry.

I believe that there is room for disagreement.

It's healthy for a man to be smitten by a woman's physical beauty. It's often the first thing that causes him to fall in love. Consider Jacob and Rachel...

Genesis 29:15-20 (ESV)
15 Then Laban said to Jacob, “Because you are my kinsman, should you therefore serve me for nothing? Tell me, what shall your wages be?” 16 Now Laban had two daughters. The name of the older was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel. 17 Leah's eyes were weak, but Rachel was beautiful in form and appearance. 18 Jacob loved Rachel. And he said, “I will serve you seven years for your younger daughter Rachel.” 19 Laban said, “It is better that I give her to you than that I should give her to any other man; stay with me.” 20 So Jacob served seven years for Rachel, and they seemed to him but a few days because of the love he had for her.

Look, boy sees girl and he can't stop thinking about her. Her hair, her eyes, her curves, her laugh, her smile. Boy gets the courage to meet girl. Boy gets to know girl and girl gets to know boy. It is normal for some of their thoughts to be about being intimate the other. It's healthy. It's not a sin. It is what God designed us to do and to delight in. Boy and girl begin to flirt and indicate that they like one another and that they are attracted to one another. Boy gets the courage to ask girl to marry him. Girl marries him. Boy gets to fulfill the desire he's had for her. It's not porn. It's a beautiful design. A holy thing.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Thank you, but it's okay.

Hey, you have a fan. lol

[Jito463]

Well, this thread went completely off the rails.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I met and married my wife within a few months. I followed Paul's advice.

I'm not going to claim that I wasn't sexually attracted to her, obviously I was and still am or we wouldn't have 3 kids.

But the marriage bed is undefiled, and that requires me bringing my flesh and physical desires under control. I'm not a prude, but I'm not lascivious either.

I was first married at 21. If you never fantasized about that wedding night leading up to the wedding date, you're a better man than me. But, I'll tell you something. I had it all mapped out. I knew the plan going in. Every move. From foreplay to cuddling and going to sleep. After all was said and done, she was in a daze. She even accused me of studying for it and wanted to know what book I had read. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Well, this thread went completely off the rails.

Tell me about it.

A lot of these people are going to lose coverage for their meds. :P

[n david]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Well, this thread went completely off the rails.

So far off the rails.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I don't have a son, but if I did, I wouldn't tell him the lie your pastor told you.

Well, I do know this. As other young men became so discouraged by constant failure, I had joy and confidence in Christ.

"Flee youthful lusts."

Yes, once you get older, you need to get your focus. It's part of maturity.

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

I was taught that making love, sex, sexual desire, sexual thoughts, and my manhood were pure, lovely, and virtuous things. I don't remember ever being scolded, condemned, or made to feel dirty about it. I was also taught that the marriage bed is undefiled and whatever we were willing to do and give to one another was a holy thing.

Now, I will say that my wife and I had gone for pastoral marriage counseling once with our second pastor. This guy essentially told us that anything outside of straight up plain ol' "missionary" was "sodomy". That scared me to death, our first pastor never said that kind of thing. I mean, it really bothered me. My wife told me that she didn't agree with him and said, "He has issues." I asked her what she felt was permissible. She said, "Everything. I belong to you, whatever you want that I'm willing to give." I was a bit shocked. But, I mean, ... who was I to force my morality on her?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that there is room for disagreement.

It's healthy for a man to be smitten by a woman's physical beauty. It's often the first thing that causes him to fall in love. Consider Jacob and Rachel...

Genesis 29:15-20 (ESV)
15 Then Laban said to Jacob, “Because you are my kinsman, should you therefore serve me for nothing? Tell me, what shall your wages be?” 16 Now Laban had two daughters. The name of the older was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel. 17 Leah's eyes were weak, but Rachel was beautiful in form and appearance. 18 Jacob loved Rachel. And he said, “I will serve you seven years for your younger daughter Rachel.” 19 Laban said, “It is better that I give her to you than that I should give her to any other man; stay with me.” 20 So Jacob served seven years for Rachel, and they seemed to him but a few days because of the love he had for her.

Look, boy sees girl and he can't stop thinking about her. Her hair, her eyes, her curves, her laugh, her smile. Boy gets the courage to meet girl. Boy gets to know girl and girl gets to know boy. It is normal for some of their thoughts to be about being intimate the other. It's healthy. It's not a sin. It is what God designed us to do and to delight in. Boy and girl begin to flirt and indicate that they like one another and that they are attracted to one another. Boy gets the courage to ask girl to marry him. Girl marries him. Boy gets to fulfill the desire he's had for her. It's not porn. It's a beautiful design. A holy thing.

I agree with what you wrote here. Absolutely. It's fine to be physically attracted to your future spouse. I have no disagreement with this.

But what you wrote is not the same as what we've been discussing. What you wrote here isn't about masturbation, which is where the train initially went off the rails.

There's a chasm of difference between being physically attracted to the opposite sex and fantasizing about having sex with them in your mind in order to satisfy yourself. (I'm trying very hard to be as clean as possible. I could post much more detail, but I don't believe it's appropriate in mixed company.)