What is the GOSPEL?

[Godsdrummer]

"We must apply that work of salvation to our lives, since it does not happen automatically. And everything done to apply it to us are acts that prove we believe we cannot earn it , and prove God alone earned it for us through the work Jesus, our high priest, did."

Am I the only one that sees the direct contradiction of this statement.

Yes we apply the work of the cross to our lives, by faith. All the acts that we do after faith are what prove our faith. "if I say I have faith and do not the works my faith is dead, faith without works is dead". Works do not save me, "I will show you my faith by my works".

Joh 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What should we do, that we may work the works of God?" (29) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

It is a work to believe. Jesus said so himself! But that is not wrong, because that's not the kind of works the bible condemns. THINKING is a work, Godsdrummer. BELIEVING is a work. But it's part of what saves because it's not a work that earns salvation by proving our goodness and that we have no need of the cross.

This is where you twist the meaning IMO, and add to what Christ said. The work Christ speaks here is the work of faith. And that is where he stopped.
But Paul separates the work of faith from the works deemed of salvation.
"by faith are you saved and not of works least any should boast".

The works themselves are not what save us in and of themselves. They are the works that prove we have real faith. But without that work then we don't have the real faith. that's why God would not have pronounced Abraham righteous if He foresaw Abraham would not be circumcised in obedience.

You make two statements here that are not scripture, IMO. "without that work we don't have real faith" and "God would not have pronounced Abraham righteous if he foresaw Abraham would not be circumcised"

You cannot say we don't have faith until the work is accomplished, nor God would not have pronounce Abraham righteous before circumcision" Because Paul states "was Abraham's righteousness counted before circumcision or after." The whole fourth chapter of Romans is about how our faith saves us before works of righteousness.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Amanah

A salvation that requires no action whatsoever from its recipient would of necessity be predestination, right?

No never, to put it into Mikes words, faith is an action, so one must have faith. The only thing I am pointing out is that faith saves one the rest comes after salvation.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Am I the only one that sees the direct contradiction of this statement.

It's a condtradiction to you only because of your definition of what "works" are that are condemned in the bible..

Yes we apply the work of the cross to our lives, by faith. All the acts that we do after faith are what prove our faith.

And application is a work. But it's not a work the bible condemns. Let me say it again. the bible only condemns works that earn salvation without reliance on Christ's work on the cross. In other words, the WORKS that are condemned are works in and of themselves that are heaven-worthy. And the bible just calls them WORKS, in such instances as in Paul's words to the Ephesians when he says it's not of works. But he qualifies his use of the word, by saying "Lest we should boast." That's the key. When I do something that in and of itself is meritorious of earning heaven, I can boast. It's my work itself that gained heaven. But the works that are part of salvation cannot earn heaven of themselves. I cannot boast of how good I got baptized, because baptism does not save in and of itself. I can only boast of the cross and say that's the ONLY work that earns heaven for anyone, and I get baptized into it.

To miss this and say what you are saying is like pointing at a house that's the best built house in existence, and more valuable than any other house, and then saying "Look how I walk into this house. Isn't my walk the best walk on earth?" No one in their right mind would boast of how they walked into the house. It's the HOUSE that 's worth boasting of. But if I did not make the house nor pay for it, but simply walked into it because it was given to me, my walk into it is NOTHING to boast of! That is what baptism is to me. If someone asked me, "Did you build that house? Who built that house!? It's amazing and beyond description!" I have nothing to boast of. All I can do is point at how I walked into it. "Hey, did you see my walk? I walked into this house better than anyone can!!" The guy would laugh at me and roll his eyes.

This is the true picture of the required works that are part of salvation, and where they actually stand in the overall picture. So, for your to say I preach salvation by works, when all that my works are is a walk into the house, is for you to say we boast of how we walk into the house. And that is ridiculous. That is what those works are to me. They're necessary for salvation. But they're not the sort of works the bible condemns because they EARN ME NOTHING. JESUS EARNED MY salvation. NOT ME. So, until we agree on the definition of the kind of works the bible condemns for salvation, there is nothing to say to each other.

You just don't get the difference between works that try to, but never can, earn salvation and works that are necessary for salvation.

"if I say I have faith and do not the works my faith is dead, faith without works is dead". Works do not save me, "I will show you my faith by my works".

This is where you twist the meaning IMO, and add to what Christ said.

I twisted nothing. He said work the works of God,. They said what are they? He said believe. BELIEF is a work, in Jesus' own words.

The work Christ speaks here is the work of faith.

THAT IS WHAT I SAID!!

It is a work.

And that is where he stopped.

That is what I said!

But Paul separates the work of faith from the works deemed of salvation.
"by faith are you saved and not of works least any should boast".

You missed my point. FAITH is a work. So, in your argument, you woudl say Jesus is wrong because you say we cannot be saved by works, and yet Jesus said faith saves us and is a work.

You make two statements here that are not scripture, IMO. "without that work we don't have real faith"

That is absolutely scriptural. What do you think DEAD means when it says, "Faith without works is dead"? It is lifeless faith. NON-EXISTENT faith. FAKE faith.

and "God would not have pronounced Abraham righteous if he foresaw Abraham would not be circumcised"

That is absolutely scriptural. If faith without works is FAKE FAITH (which is what dead means), then that means TRUE faith that is unfeigned (not faked) will have works that follow them that prove it's GENUINE faith. And Abraham's FAITH was genuine because it had works that followed it. In order for my statement to not be biblical, then that would mean Abraham did not have genuine faith.

"Faith without works is dead" means that genuine faith has evidence that proves the faith is genuine. And the evidence is the works that follow. That's why James says when you SAY you have faith you need to DO SOMETHING to prove it. It's like saying you have faith for healing, but never step out and lay hands on teh sick to see them healed.

If you do not think hat's what "faith without works is dead," means then what do you think it means?

You cannot say we don't have faith until the work is accomplished,

I never said that. You are not following my words.

I said genuine faith exists before any works take place. But the works will take place if it is indeed genuine faith. Like circumcision. That was a work of his faith. You have to have the faith BEFORE you do the work, but genuine faith will have works that follow.

nor God would not have pronounce Abraham righteous before circumcision" Because Paul states "was Abraham's righteousness counted before circumcision or after." The whole fourth chapter of Romans is about how our faith saves us before works of righteousness.

No. It's about how the faith that saves WILL WORK. And that includes those works in our salvation. If faith that saves us has to have works to follow, then salvation includes those works. But they are works that prove our faith, and those works do not save in and of themselves.

[shazeep]

"We must apply that work of salvation to our lives, since it does not happen automatically. And everything done to apply it to us are acts that prove we believe we cannot earn it , and prove God alone earned it for us through the work Jesus, our high priest, did."

anyone see contradiction?

it's only a contradiction because...

it is a perceived contradiction, iow, based upon judgement of the other person's heart, which cannot be known.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Godsdrummer, what is a covenant?



What is a covenant? It's a contract and testament. Right?

Nice. It's a promise.

Originally Posted by mfblume

It stops where the Word says it stops. It begins where the Word says it begins.

It stops, and begins where the Book says all that; not the Word.

Originally Posted by mfblume

What did Peter command them the first day the Spirit was poured out? Simple.

You found something simple? Now i have to go look...ah, yes. So simple a child could do it. But you are adulting, you are still an adult. Little children have no problem listening to hippies.

Originally Posted by mfblume

You are taking this into an area that has nothing to do with what I am saying. I am saying stick with the word, and don'[t add to it nor take away from it. Jesus said baptism saves. Peter said baptism saves. Paul said baptism washes sins. It's PART of salvation. And shazeep never acknowledges I say this, but without faith none of it does any good.

Without faith none of it does any good. But you are sticking with the letter, not the Word, and you are sticking to your beliefs, not your faith. Baptism saves and washes, and they are a part of salvation, an integral part. You are washed in the Word.

Originally Posted by mfblume

No problem there! The high priest is JESUS. And Jesus stood in OUR STEAD and acted as if we were doing it!

Amen.

Originally Posted by mfblume

His holiness was applied to us, and that makes it as good as what we did.

Yes. But you must believe that, you have to have faith; and you are asked to have faith in something you never saw, and no one can prove to you. How can anyone be asked to do this?

Originally Posted by mfblume

So that's the difference. That principle is found in Heb 9.

Difference? There's a difference? Now i have to go look again...ah ok. Christ is our High Priest, yes, but you are the priest that you need to insert in there, for your purposes, because Christ our High Priest has done all that He will ever do, except keep breathing the Word.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And everything done toi apply it to us are acts that prove we believe we cannot earn it ,

Can you rephrase this? Because everything is done, except that you believe the Word.

Originally Posted by mfblume

You say that because you have a totally different definition of works than what the bible deals with. We spoke of this before. You do not realize that works in the bible that are forbidden are things we do to earn salvation to prove OUR PERSONAL GOODNESS, and prove we have no need of the death of Jesus to take place.

Nice. Very nice.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And if you take YOUR view of works all the way, then you have a salvation by works, too. How do I know? I already said this before and you never answered, but here it is again:

You are right, and this plan seems to violate Faith, yes? But once you have faith in the Word--not the Letter--then works are all you have left to do. Or, i mean, there is nothing left to do, but you don't just die right after you are saved, so you have to do something, right? You have to live. Actually you have to start living. You have to wake up--well, you just already woke up, but i mean wake up every day, get the kids off to school, do whatever you do, maybe bring the elderly parents, etc. And those are your works, that you do from your faith, that you got from the Word that whoever believes (has faith in the Word) on the Son has eternal life.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Joh 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What should we do, that we may work the works of God?" (29) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

It is a work to believe. Jesus said so himself! But that is not wrong, because that's not the kind of works the bible condemns. THINKING is a work, Godsdrummer. BELIEVING is a work. But it's part of what saves because it's not a work that earns salvation by proving our goodness and that we have no need of the cross.

Part of the problem there is that works and good deeds are conflated--which they are the same, don't get me wrong--but believing is also a lot of work, because you are an adult now, and it is very hard to forget all that you have learned. So, a lot of work, that a little child does not have to do, and that work is only a good deed for you.

Originally Posted by mfblume

The works themselves are not what save us in and of themselves. They are the works that prove we have real faith.

Well, you just are going to do them, after you get the Word, because Constantine's Way, deathbed salvation, does not...work. Even though it is possible to get the Word on your deathbed, i guess; but then you would almost surely...yes, definitely, be rejuvenated by the Word, and you would no longer be dying then.

Originally Posted by mfblume

But without that work then we don't have the real faith. that's why God would not have pronounced Abraham righteous if He foresaw Abraham would not be circumcised in obedience.

(If you will make positive statements rather than negative ones, this will go easier; i think anyway, let's see)

"That's why God pronounced Abraham righteous; He foresaw that Abraham would be circumcised in obedience."

amen! Abraham did not have the encumbrance of Law, which we know is inadequate, insufficient, and kills. Abrahamwas a hippy, so to speak. Abraham got Love Your Neighbor, The Gospel, the Word. Abraham did not start adulting.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And that BELIEF we have by looking to the cross with eyes of understanding IS A WORK according to Jesus.

Christ is saying here that..."It is a lot of work for an adult, to do this. Because they have become indoctrinated in the Law, that inadequate thing, which hinders faith in the Word."

And one must do the work, this work, because New Age works are too easily done from the desire to improve self, to make boast, so that self may say "i am better than i was yesterday; hmm i think i might be a little better than that guy, now." Although NA hippies who have the Word, and a pure heart--not both, they are the same thing--are not doing that, that leaven part.

Originally Posted by mfblume

This proves WORKS that are condemned are only a certain KIND.

Yes. The works of Ali are condemned, if he imagined that God would majikally save him because of them. God cannot do this, even if He really, really wanted to, simply because you cannot become an adult for your child. Even though many people try to do this, of course. We all know the outcome for the child. Now, if Ali had the Word, then his works were just what he wanted to do anyway, in the course of his day, from his pure heart, which is the Word.

So, it might be seen that Ali's early, angry works were done from a desire to please God, whereas he got a smile in his later years that tells me that he got the Word, possibly. but please don'y get hung up on hos religion, that you miss the point, which was about reflecting upon his...the state of his heart, toward the good deeds. A good deed covers many sins; probably regardless--but they can be done begrudgingly, "because i have to, to go to heaven," or because one wants to, for whatever number of reasons.

Work is just work; it is no fun, one generally does not volunteer for work. If you volunteer for work, why are you volunteering? Because it will make you look better to certain people? Or because it is something needs doing, and you enjoy pitching in, being a part, know you will want volunteers when you need them, and so are happy to sow, so you can reap?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

it is a perceived contradiction, iow, based upon judgement of the other person's heart, which cannot be known.

Nice. It's a promise.

It stops, and begins where the Book says all that; not the Word.

The book is filled with nothing but his word, so it is synonymous with the word..

You found something simple? Now i have to go look...ah, yes. So simple a child could do it. But you are adulting, you are still an adult. Little children have no problem listening to hippies.

I am not "adulting" at all. I accepeted the word without any visible proof it's true.

Without faith none of it does any good. But you are sticking with the letter, not the Word, and you are sticking to your beliefs, not your faith.

Nope. I accepted the word, and believed it. And any acts I did were acts based upon teh word without any physical evidence to prove that word true.

Baptism saves and washes, and they are a part of salvation, an integral part. You are washed in the Word.

The word we are washed in is the word we believed when we got baptized. Jesus gave himself in death for the church so he could present that church to himself without spot or wrinkle. The spots are washed off and the wrinkles are washed away when we are first saved, so we can say our sins are remitted. That's from the washing of baptism where the word connected with us the way God meant it to, and we BELIEVED it. The water of baptism washed nothing. The word we believed in when we were baptized is what washed us. That's why baptism is NOTHING unless we have the FAITH it requires in Christ's death into which we are being baptized. This makes HIS DEATH OUR DEATHS. THAT is the word of faith that we preach.

Yes. But you must believe that, you have to have faith; and you are asked to have faith in something you never saw, and no one can prove to you. How can anyone be asked to do this?

Exactly,. That is what I've been trying to say.

Difference? There's a difference? Now i have to go look again...ah ok. Christ is our High Priest, yes, but you are the priest that you need to insert in there,

No.

I am not the priest when it comes to Christ entering into the holiest in our place. That is NOT where my priesthood begins or ends. We are kings and priests in Rev 1:5-6 and 5:10. But it is HIS blood and HIS work and HIS goodness.... in other words. I am only a priest and king because Jesus became high priest and king of kings and shared with me his identity. That's why I use HIS NAME when I ACT. I have nothing to point to to prove this is true. Just reliance on what His word said.

for your purposes, because Christ our High Priest has done all that He will ever do, except keep breathing the Word.
Can you rephrase this? Because everything is done, except that you believe the Word.
Nice. Very nice.
You are right, and this plan seems to violate Faith, yes? But once you have faith in the Word--not the Letter--then works are all you have left to do.

Faith in the letter is not contrasted by faith in the word. We cannot have FAITH in the letter. That's an oxymoron. The letter is not what is believed. The letter is ONLY acted upon in rule-book obedience. That's what the word says about the letter. If faith is involved, there is no evidence to point at to tell us our target of faith is bona fide. It's TRUST in what he said. And that is not the letter.

So, when one reads about the letter of the law, ONE IS ONLY reading about a set of rules to make oneself holy. But if one is reading word and is told to believe without any physical evidence that it's true, in order to be saved from sin, that is not the letter, that is faith in the word.

Unless we see the letter as a set of rules to obey to make ourselves righteous, we are not understanding what the letter is in the context of the word's reference to it.

Or, i mean, there is nothing left to do, but you don't just die right after you are saved, so you have to do something, right? You have to live. Actually you have to start living. You have to wake up--well, you just already woke up, but i mean wake up every day, get the kids off to school, do whatever you do, maybe bring the elderly parents, etc. And those are your works, that you do from your faith, that you got from the Word that whoever believes (has faith in the Word) on the Son has eternal life.

That is PART of what I meant.

Part of the problem there is that works and good deeds are conflated--which they are the same, don't get me wrong--but believing is also a lot of work, because you are an adult now, and it is very hard to forget all that you have learned. So, a lot of work, that a little child does not have to do, and that work is only a good deed for you.
Well, you just are going to do them, after you get the Word, because Constantine's Way, deathbed salvation, does not...work. Even though it is possible to get the Word on your deathbed, i guess; but then you would almost surely...yes, definitely, be rejuvenated by the Word, and you would no longer be dying then.

I can agree with that.

(If you will make positive statements rather than negative ones, this will go easier; i think anyway, let's see)

"That's why God pronounced Abraham righteous; He foresaw that Abraham would be circumcised in obedience."

amen! Abraham did not have the encumbrance of Law, which we know is inadequate, insufficient, and kills. Abrahamwas a hippy, so to speak. Abraham got Love Your Neighbor, The Gospel, the Word. Abraham did not start adulting.

In a sense, but hippies are more than carefree folks who are lawless. lol SO, I would not take their lawlessness as an example because they fornicated, got drunk and committed adultery.

Christ is saying here that..."It is a lot of work for an adult, to do this. Because they have become indoctrinated in the Law, that inadequate thing, which hinders faith in the Word."

And one must do the work, this work, because New Age works are too easily done from the desire to improve self, to make boast, so that self may say "i am better than i was yesterday; hmm i think i might be a little better than that guy, now." Although NA hippies who have the Word, and a pure heart--not both, they are the same thing--are not doing that, that leaven part.

Yes. The works of Ali are condemned, if he imagined that God would majikally save him because of them. God cannot do this, even if He really, really wanted to, simply because you cannot become an adult for your child. Even though many people try to do this, of course. We all know the outcome for the child. Now, if Ali had the Word, then his works were just what he wanted to do anyway, in the course of his day, from his pure heart, which is the Word.

I agree with what you intend here, but I think you're using the wrong term child and adult. Child faith is not non-thinking faith. You already noted belief is a work. But child-like pictures intend upon accepting something easily without requiring physical proof.

So, it might be seen that Ali's early, angry works were done from a desire to please God, whereas he got a smile in his later years that tells me that he got the Word, possibly. but please don'y get hung up on hos religion, that you miss the point, which was about reflecting upon his...the state of his heart, toward the good deeds. A good deed covers many sins; probably regardless--but they can be done begrudgingly, "because i have to, to go to heaven," or because one wants to, for whatever number of reasons.

Love covers many sins, not a good deed.

Work is just work; it is no fun, one generally does not volunteer for work. If you volunteer for work, why are you volunteering? Because it will make you look better to certain people? Or because it is something needs doing, and you enjoy pitching in, being a part, know you will want volunteers when you need them, and so are happy to sow, so you can reap?

Exactly. If a work we do is to garner attention to us and point out how amazing we are, it's hell-bait.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The book is filled with nothing but his word, so it is synonymous with the word.

Yet you can't find the verse that says this, and i know, for a Truth that you will not, because Book came from Word, Word is not in Book. Book manifested because the guy on the bench, next to the dog, had some worries. In a manner of speaking.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am not "adulting" at all. I accepeted the word without any visible proof it's true.

What you accepted was Book, because hippies, because adult. You are adulting, because you are not a little child anymore, just as i am not.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Nope. I accepted the word, and believed it. And any acts I did were acts based upon teh word without any physical evidence to prove that word true.

You accepted a story on faith, and you did exactly what you were supposed to do. But it was not the Word; you accepted the story that the Word manifested, so that you might learn the Gospel, the Word.
continued

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The word we are washed in is the word we believed when we got baptized.

The letter brings death (baptism) The Word brings new life. Jesus gave himself in death for the church so he could present that church to himself without spot or wrinkle. The spots are washed off and the wrinkles are washed away when we are first saved, so we can say our sins are remitted. That's from the washing of baptism where the word connected with us the way God meant it to, and we BELIEVED it.[/QUOTE]how awesome is that? Christ dies for you, and you were still a sinner? You did not care about Christ? You could not help Christ in any way, He had no ulterior motive? But He died for you anyway. Christ must be lifted up, amen. There are other baptisms, though; two more.

Originally Posted by mfblume

The water of baptism washed nothing. The word we believed in when we were baptized is what washed us. That's why baptism is NOTHING unless we have the FAITH it requires in Christ's death into which we are being baptized. This makes HIS DEATH OUR DEATHS. THAT is the word of faith that we preach.

you keep saying the same things here, so i will try and say something different now. The water baptism is the death to the Law, that you may go on to the new wine, and the old wine. You got a little taste of the new wine; maybe got no sleep for a day or two, talked a little funny to your old friends, etc. The process was started, but you could not handle the Word yet; you had no root yet, you were a babe yet, and needed the Milk of the Word, that is in the Book.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly,. That is what I've been trying to say.

and you are absolutely correct, it does me no good to say that i don't believe you when you say that, because you are not lying; we are just not yet in agreement. You have taken that in a different way, just like the doG and the guy are in two different worlds, sitting right next to each other. There is another way to grasp any statement that points to truth, because there are two sides to every story, a doctrine for every other doctrine, which is why that approach fails you. us.

Originally Posted by mfblume

No.

Are you a priest? Or not?

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am not the priest when it comes to Christ entering into the holiest in our place. That is NOT where my priesthood begins or ends.

Ok yes that is fine, only you are also a Temple, and you are the priest of that Temple, the Temple of Mike. You can walk through the door of Passover, no longer a slave, an heir and a child, beholden to servants, getting snake bit in the wilderness and looking to Christ like a snake on a pole, or you can--you will, whenever you like, whenever you are ready, there is no hurry, you do not have to change until you are ready to volunteer--get to the Promised Land, Mike.

Originally Posted by mfblume

We are kings and priests in Rev 1:5-6 and 5:10. But it is HIS blood and HIS work and HIS goodness.... in other words. I am only a priest and king because Jesus became high priest and king of kings and shared with me his identity. That's why I use HIS NAME when I ACT. I have nothing to point to to prove this is true. Just reliance on what His word said.

And there is power in the Name, yes. But you have nothing to point to, to prove that is true, in a Book that contains it all, and takes two years to read all the way through? What is wrong with this picture? You are relying on the Book, which is not the Word. The Word is much nearer to you than that; it is here it is now. It is your intention. Yes. It is your intention to follow the Book, when the Word is just God's intention. God's Word does not return to Him void, right? If you change your intention, to that of a little child, that is like "let's do this, now; lets do that now and this now and that NOW, bingbingbing, like a dog, let's go out let's come in, let's just go out again. That is the Word. Now see that what comes out of your mouth is what you are going to manifest, and there is no choice in this matter. You are what you say, and you do what you say, whether you want to or not, because even if you are lying, like intentionally, to someone else, you are just going to manifest lie instead of truth, or even Truth.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Faith in the letter is not contrasted by faith in the word. We cannot have FAITH in the letter. That's an oxymoron. The letter is not what is believed. The letter is ONLY acted upon in rule-book obedience. That's what the word says about the letter. If faith is involved, there is no evidence to point at to tell us our target of faith is bona fide. It's TRUST in what he said. And that is not the letter.

Ok, please start using Book or Bible instead of "the word" if you would please, because that is whacking me out, and we can both agree that what you mean there is "the Bible" ok? That way i don't feel compelled to fix that every time you say it, ty.

Ok now to answer, starting at the top:
i have faith in the Letter, the Bible, Mike. Faith is just confidence. Notice that you are saying that you do not have faith in any letters? You do not have faith in the Bible? Because the Bible is just letters, that embody concepts to us. Um. Ok, note that your dog cannot react to the wo...to "wanna go outside?" if you type it on a page and show it to him. You can go "look, look! don't you see?" and until you say the Word, Outside, he does not know what you are even doing, dogs must truly think we are nuts, "why the heck do they do that, it sure doesn't look like much fun, pecking on a machine all day. I sure don't see anything coming out of the machine, for him to eat, or play with, or have sex with...what else could the gods possibly want? i wonder why they do that? gods sure are funny, i tell you, i just do not get gods. they are mysterious, a mystery to me."

Originally Posted by mfblume

So, when one reads about the letter of the law, ONE IS ONLY reading about a set of rules to make oneself holy. But if one is reading word and is told to believe without any physical evidence that it's true, in order to be saved from sin, that is not the letter, that is faith in the word.

Mike, you cannot read the Word, because the Word cannot be typed. Ask you dog. Type the word "outside" and show it to him, and you will see; there is no Word, until you say the Word.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Unless we see the letter as a set of rules to obey to make ourselves righteous, we are not understanding what the letter is in the context of the word's reference to it.

Yet you already know from the letter that the law is not adequate to save you, Mike.

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is PART of what I meant.



I can agree with that.

contd

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Love covers many sins, not a good deed.

Yet you know i can go, and bring back the verse that refutes this; because it is true and not true. Good deeds come from love, and even if they are begrudged they are better than bad deeds, and so..."cover sins," speaking physically, perhaps, rather than spiritually. So, if they are begrudged but done anyway, a sin is covered, while the Pharisee gets no "credit," because his heart was not in it, there was no love in it. It was Pity. And yes i already know the verse but see that there is Compassion, and then there is Charity, and then Pity. and Empathy should probably be first.

ok i just lost an hour here, you already know how, this is all i had left in copy, so a little shorter posts please ty.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Yet you can't find the verse that says this, and i know, for a Truth that you will not, because Book came from Word, Word is not in Book. Book manifested because the guy on the bench, next to the dog, had some worries. In a manner of speaking.

Yes I can and I did. lol

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

What you accepted was Book, because hippies, because adult.

Your attempts at sounding spiritual using these parables that take the same terms form the bible out of context is prideful, dude. Just talk. lol

I accepted the word of God. I believed Christ died AS ME on the cross, and AS me was buried and resurrected. Because you reject the message of the cross, which is the ONLY word there is, and all the WORD says is about IT, you diminish the word of God in its written form to excuse yourself from it's requirements for your heart. Not your flesh. YOUR HEART. And you concoct your own definitions of terms, and would barely know the Holy Ghost if it hit you square in the face. Let's just say it as it is.

The Spirit is anointing and power and came to uplift Christ and the cross and return things to our remembrance that He said. This book's been burned more than any other book on earth by satanic efforts, and still burns to ashes in the hearts of unbelievers.

You are adulting, because you are not a little child anymore, just as i am not.

You misuse terms like little children repeatedly. Oh, if you could see what it actually meant.

You accepted a story on faith,

No. I accepted truth on faith. And it worked miracles as a result.

and you did exactly what you were supposed to do. But it was not the Word; you accepted the story that the Word manifested, so that you might learn the Gospel, the Word.
continued

You know not the simple truths the word actually presents. And this is the reason why you treat the word so lightly and abuse it. no one who truly appreciated the word would ever dare abuse it and take it out of context at one's own whims. Which is why you think people are okay if they follow a Jesus that they'[re told never so much as died on a cross.

[shazeep]

Then you must ask yourself why i am so confident that you cannot find that in the Book, since i did not write it either, Mike. Have a good day.