The Biblical tithe, re-examined

[Tithesmeister]

You’re welcome, but not so fast. Even though you are correct, theologically speaking, do not pretend that pastors today do not teach that we are still under portions of the law. You are aware of this, right?

[Tithesmeister]

Also, the reference to the law could, in regard to teaching tithe, be exchanged for being partial in teaching the scripture. In regard to this, could you give your opinion on the questions I posed above? Because you really have heard tithing taught from Malachi, haven’t you?

[Evang.Benincasa]

The conclusion remains the same. Malachi isn’t referring to Christian ministry or church saints. You can attempt poetic license and say it seems to be what they are doing. But that just muddies the water, and takes away from originally what the scripture is actually trying to say. Have I heard tithing taught from Malachi? That’s like asking if I heard Mystery Babylon taught as New York? It would be yes on both. But just because someone incorrectly teaches from a passage, doesn’t give us license to do the same.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The conclusion remains the same. Malachi isn’t referring to Christian ministry or church saints. You can attempt poetic license and say it seems to be what they are doing. But that just muddies the water, and takes away from originally what the scripture is actually trying to say. Have I heard tithing taught from Malachi? That’s like asking if I heard Mystery Babylon taught as New York? It would be yes on both. But just because someone incorrectly teaches from a passage, doesn’t give us license to do the same.

How is it corrected then? I think that is at the core of the posters reasoning. We all hear men using Malachi to hammer people on tithing. But how do we correct it? I don't think it would be proper to stand up and walk out or cause a stink. I don't know any who would fair well telling their Pastor he was wrong in private either or asking to debate the issue in private (I've tried. Didn't go well). Not everyone is called to Pastor, so we can't all just walk away and start another church.

So what happens is what we see in this and other forums. People gather, talk about issues and vent, argue, debate, etc because there is no mechanism for change in most Apostolic churches. Malachi has literally nothing in common with modern tithing except they both use the same word, yet there is no means for the average saint to have the issue addressed.

To bring it back to the thread intention...no matter how much we hash out the tithe, history, application, etc...there is nothing we can do with said understanding. And so, the frustration overflows at times. If you know of a way to actually effect change in a church please share as men have tried prayer, fasting and educating yet the tithing nonsense is still as much a cornerstone of Apostooic churches as the T.U.L.I.P is the Reformed folks.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The conclusion remains the same. Malachi isn’t referring to Christian ministry or church saints. You can attempt poetic license and say it seems to be what they are doing. But that just muddies the water, and takes away from originally what the scripture is actually trying to say. Have I heard tithing taught from Malachi? That’s like asking if I heard Mystery Babylon taught as New York? It would be yes on both. But just because someone incorrectly teaches from a passage, doesn’t give us license to do the same.

Thank you EB. That was a balanced answer. I deduce from this that you do not believe that the tithe is for Christians, or for Gentiles and never has been. I do not want you to believe that I am taking artistic license with the Bible. I am not trying to hold pro-tithe people to a concept, principle or law that I don't believe in. That would be hypocrisy after all.

I am trying to hold them to a principle that THEY believe in, or at least they profess to. I am hearing constantly that tithing is a precept, principle and even from some, still applicable to us as a law. I hear that salvation is denied anyone who doesn't tithe. It seems that any answer is the right answer, as long as the end result is tithes. Abram's one time example of tithing is not an event in their eyes, it is instead a practice. The tithing being of flocks, herds, and crops, that was indeed a practice, a principle, and a law, is reduced to being a principle. The scripture is fluid, it is different things to different people, it is subject to private interpretation. A promise from Jacob to tithe, contingent on God fulfilling a laundry list of pre-requisites, is established as a pattern for Christians to follow. Preachers are equated with Levitical priests if it is advantageous to them receiving tithes, when there is little to no scripture to support this theory and considerable scripture to oppose it.

Furthermore, when we discount the example of God rebuking the priests through the prophet Malachi, it seems to me we ignore the passage in

2 Timothry 3:16-17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

If you go up to verse thirteen you will be rewarded with context for this verse.

2 Timothy 3:13

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

EB, you have been truthful with your answer, and I appreciate you for that. Honesty is a virtue. I believe however that there is a lot of "deceiving, and being deceived" inherent to the tithe doctrine. I believe that "profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction" should not be the baby that is thrown out with the bathwater that is the law. I believe that Malachi is a treasure trove of scripture that is under utilized when it comes to reproof, correction and instruction.

Thanks again.
May God richly bless all your efforts.

[The Lemon]

Anything founded on principle will have private interpretation - the principle in tithing is giving - of course NT giving is that cheerfully and not under necessity - I have heard it preached more than once that if we were truly Apostolic, we would sell off everything and give all to the Church for proper distribution - but we "Aren't ready for that" so tithes are preached instead - I'm just repeating what I have heard preached..

The same can be and has been discussed with various doctrinal stances - everything from this discussion on tithes to dress standards, facial hair, entertainment, alcohol, and on and on and on - I have read posts (hundreds I think) on all these subjects, collectively and individually.

It will always come down to application of principle with regards to our own relationship with God (Is He our Father or is He a Hard Man?) If I am connected to Him and I listen for His voice in every area of my life - then where have I been planted? Who has He designed that I sit under at this present time? If I am where he has planted and am in his will - then submission and obedience are required of me by HIM.

So does that mean I have to follow false doctrine? NOPE! But I am NOT allowed to sow discord over private interpretation or even personal conviction over a scriptural principle - the principle of each one of the subjects I mentioned are in the book - the application - you guessed it, are between myself, my God, and the leadership he has placed me under....that is why most of these discussions tend to be circular in nature.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

How is it corrected then? I think that is at the core of the posters reasoning. We all hear men using Malachi to hammer people on tithing. But how do we correct it? I don't think it would be proper to stand up and walk out or cause a stink. I don't know any who would fair well telling their Pastor he was wrong in private either or asking to debate the issue in private (I've tried. Didn't go well). Not everyone is called to Pastor, so we can't all just walk away and start another church.

So what happens is what we see in this and other forums. People gather, talk about issues and vent, argue, debate, etc because there is no mechanism for change in most Apostolic churches. Malachi has literally nothing in common with modern tithing except they both use the same word, yet there is no means for the average saint to have the issue addressed.

To bring it back to the thread intention...no matter how much we hash out the tithe, history, application, etc...there is nothing we can do with said understanding. And so, the frustration overflows at times. If you know of a way to actually effect change in a church please share as men have tried prayer, fasting and educating yet the tithing nonsense is still as much a cornerstone of Apostooic churches as the T.U.L.I.P is the Reformed folks.

How we correct it? I believe that we are working to correct it, by doing what we are now. It is important to understand that we didn't get where we are in the last two weeks, or years, or even centuries. We have been nearly two thousand years getting to where we are now on tithing. There is a misconception that tithing is tithing. What it is, is what it has always been. This is not the case. Instead the tithing doctrine is, I'm convinced not arrived, but is still in the process of changing.

For example, a timeline of tithing is that the Christian tithe did not exist for about six hundred years after the crucifixion of Jesus. It was re-instituted to be almost exactly like the Old Testament tithe. Except that the Old Testament tithe was of course confined by law to the promised land. They changed that.

Later they changed the tithe law to include hay. They needed feed for the animals that the fewer people in the ministry could not possibly eat. The law explicitly instructed that the tithe be eaten. Nobody wants to eat hay. So they changed the tithe . . . again. annnnd again . . . Let's make it money, instead of food. Another change. At one point in colonial Virginia, before the Revolutionary War, the tithe was actually paid according to how many slaves, and in some cases, free workers that you had. The tithe was not rendered in money though, it was instead rendered in . . . tobacco. Forty pounds per slave. It's true. The doctrine that is supposedly based on scripture is actually based on convenience, mixed with greed, fertilized by fear and superstition. I guarantee that whatever your specific belief on tithing is, it is not based on scripture, . . . unless it is that tithing is not for Christians. This is the only conclusion you can support that rightly divides the scripture.

So what should we do? We should teach the truth. Do we neglect to preach against adultery, because people still commit adultery?

We should recognize that the tithe is a salvific issue. Lying about the tithe is sinful. It should not be excused because the pastors are the offenders. We do not love our pastors if we allow them to preach a false doctrine that is based on the traditions of men and NOT on the Bible. "Preaching for doctrine the traditions of men."

We should not be weary in well doing. It took two thousand years to get where we are on tithes. We are unlikely to correct it in two weeks. I am convinced that the tithe doctrine will be uprooted. The tide is shifting. People are becoming aware of the truth. The impact of forums like this should not be underestimated.

We are not held accountable for what is impossible for us to do. I don't believe we should ever be hateful or disruptive, but we are obligated to be truthful. It is an attribute of Jesus. "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

That's the way I see it.
Thanks for contributing on the subject.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Anything founded on principle will have private interpretation - the principle in tithing is giving - of course NT giving is that cheerfully and not under necessity - I have heard it preached more than once that if we were truly Apostolic, we would sell off everything and give all to the Church for proper distribution - but we "Aren't ready for that" so tithes are preached instead - I'm just repeating what I have heard preached..

The same can be and has been discussed with various doctrinal stances - everything from this discussion on tithes to dress standards, facial hair, entertainment, alcohol, and on and on and on - I have read posts (hundreds I think) on all these subjects, collectively and individually.

It will always come down to application of principle with regards to our own relationship with God (Is He our Father or is He a Hard Man?) If I am connected to Him and I listen for His voice in every area of my life - then where have I been planted? Who has He designed that I sit under at this present time? If I am where he has planted and am in his will - then submission and obedience are required of me by HIM.

So does that mean I have to follow false doctrine? NOPE! But I am NOT allowed to sow discord over private interpretation or even personal conviction over a scriptural principle - the principle of each one of the subjects I mentioned are in the book - the application - you guessed it, are between myself, my God, and the leadership he has placed me under....that is why most of these discussions tend to be circular in nature.

Principle is indeed subject to private interpretation. That is precisely why it should never be used as a foundation for doctrine. The scripture is another matter entirely.

2 Peter 1:20-21

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Was Moses a prophet? His words are not open for private interpretation. They are the words of God.

[The Lemon]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Principle is indeed subject to private interpretation. That is precisely why it should never be used as a foundation for doctrine. The scripture is another matter entirely.

2 Peter 1:20-21

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Was Moses a prophet? His words are not open for private interpretation. They are the words of God.

Of course I agree with this post - it's Scripture! However, we both know there is a myriad of teachings that are Biblical in basis, but the specific application is not in black and white - so to speak.

This is easily provable - give me book chapter and verse about women's attire being that of a dress or skirt - further more, show me where the modest length is mentioned as well. The principles are modesty and separation - both of which are scriptural (1 Tim 2:9, & Deut. 22:5) - the specific application that most Apostolic's use are as mentioned.

So in cases where command is not clear or "black & white", we are left with principle and our relationship with the Father to direct us - of course, to be a part of the bride, we must be a part of the Body - so again, where we are planted by him would also require submission to Biblical principle application directed by leadership.

[Tithesmeister]

I understand your position about standards, and I agree that they are very subjective. In my opinion the tithe is really pretty clean cut though. It is not based on principle, it is instead based on a law. The law even though it is thousands of years old, still is pretty cleat that:
1. What: The tithe was specific to agriculture.
2.Who: The people who gave the tithe. (The farmers)
3. Who: Who received the tithes. Levites, priests that were Levites, widows, fatherless, strangers. (Contrary to popular belief, being a man of God, even Elisha, did not qualify you to receive a tithe. You had to be a Levite).

We really do have access to a LOT of information about the tithe. I am probably conservative, by most standards, however it is my opinion that comparing standards to tithing is like comparing horseshoes with thumbtacks. When it comes to supporting scripture they are worlds apart.

And, I know that tithing did occur before the law. Like a lot of other things that we don't teach.