You Can Fake It All

[ILG]

Originally Posted by n david

Nope. My bias is only on this thread because she singled out one organization with something that could happen across the broad spectrum of churches, denominations and organizations. If I read into this, it's only due to her targeting one organization.

Yes, I haven't really had any discussions with n David before that I recall even though I have been on this forum for many years.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by n david

The thread would have been more valid and I would have been more open had it not targeted the UPC.

Instead of attacking the UPC alone, it could have been more about churches in general.

Do people in any church fake salvation or go through the motions just to be accepted.

That's the better question, not this tripe of targeting the UPC.

I mentioned the UPC, because there is where I have my experiences. But any church body that measures who is "in" and who is "out" to an extreme degree falls into this discussion.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Reader

So using those "rules" as a gauge to tell people they are in or out is problematic when there could be people brought into the church, who are told they are "in" once they completed the "rules" but yet may not really know God much. They could be counting on being told by many they are "in" .....but could they be "out" because they were never shown or never knew how to go about having a relationship with God. This, to me, is more tragic than people deliberately faking.

Yes!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by n david

Speaking of faking it...


*gasp* Faking it at a non-UPC church? Say it ain't so!!!

Again, n david,......people fake it at non-upc churches too.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Reader

Ummmm, n David, if you are responding to my posts, you've totally & completely missed what I've written.

I have neither said there is no faking outside of the UPC, nor have I spoken of false accusations of people faking.

What gives?

Rabbit trails.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

I have personally known of district officials committing adultery, committing suicide and embezzling money. So, were any of these people faking?

I know of a Pastor here who committed suicide. I don't believe he was faking at all. Just because a person falls into sin doesn't mean they were faking. That would mean almost everyone in every church through every denomination is just faking. Because we've all fallen in some way at one point or another.

It doesn't mean they're faking it.

Originally Posted by ILG

A great many could be faking but I am not going to say they are. I am just fruit inspecting what I see.

Someone accused my father of judging them and he told them, no I'm just inspecting your fruit.

Originally Posted by ILG

You are making an assumption that it's easier for many to fake it in a denominal church. That is simply not true. It is MUCH easier for those who are multi-generational to fake it and stay in the church than to be castigated and rejected by their families and friends for being liberal and backslid.

I disagree that it's not easier to fake it in non-Pentecostal churches. I do agree that for some multi-generational people, there may be pressure to be in church. That doesn't mean they haven't a clue about salvation or that their experience was faked.

Originally Posted by ILG

No, stop judging who is "in" and who is "out" as if the yardstick is accurate.

We're not judging... just fruit inspecting.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

Again, n david,......people fake it at non-upc churches too.

Correct. And I wish the thread would have just been about churches in general, instead of focusing on the UPC.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by n david

Correct. And I wish the thread would have just been about churches in general, instead of focusing on the UPC.

But I can't speak first-hand about those other churches, except for the Catholic church, in which I was raised.

[ILG]

I know of a Pastor here who committed suicide. I don't believe he was faking at all. Just because a person falls into sin doesn't mean they were faking. That would mean almost everyone in every church through every denomination is just faking. Because we've all fallen in some way at one point or another.

It doesn't mean they're faking it.

Falling into sin, doesn't mean faking it, no, but one of these district officials was having an affair over the space of 12 years. Was he faking it? Why was no one able to say he is "out" during that time?

I disagree that it's not easier to fake it in non-Pentecostal churches. I do agree that for some multi-generational people, there may be pressure to be in church. That doesn't mean they haven't a clue about salvation or that their experience was faked.

For some multi-generational people, I think it is much easier to fake it than leave.

We're not judging... just fruit inspecting.

There will be some fruit inspecting and that is okay. What I am opposed to is the pronounced judgments upon people who have good character but do not follow all the rules and the total acceptance of those who follow the rules but may be having an affair behind closed doors.

The bottom line of this whole conversation is that Acts 2:38 and standards can ALL be faked and should not be used as a yardstick.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

I'ts not easier for people who would be called backslid and a number of other names and told they are going to hell and being pressured by family members all the time to "get saved". In that instance it would be easier to fake it.

There is no backsliding in denominal churches. Once saved, always saved. That's why you can have people like Paula White, Deitrick Haddon and others live in sin, yet still be on platforms across America.

Originally Posted by ILG

I never put a measurement on how many are doing so. It is possible for a great many to do so. But I am not going to say a great many are. I am simply saying it's possible for people to do so.

You're right. What you posted was a great many have no clue what true salvation is, not that a great many fake it. My apology.

I would disagree that they don't know what true salvation is. I was the third generation in the UPC and read the Bible and it's plan of salvation when I was young. Perhaps there are a few who are lazy and don't look for themselves, but not a great many. Especially in the UPC, because of its focus on the Bible.

Originally Posted by ILG

Okay, first of all, I didn't say "The UPC fakes it". My, but you are defensive. I know some people fake it because I have stood in the sidelines while I watched saints and district officials commit adultery, suicide, and embezzle money. Yes, I have seen all of these things.

Not in those words, but the post targeted the UPC and suggested that people fake it. Again, just because someone falls or sins, does not mean they were faking their relationship with God. Who are you to say that? I've known men and women who have committed adultery, a Pastor who shot himself, and others who were accused of embezzlement or other things. They had sin, yes, but it doesn't mean they faked it. I spoke with one minister who admitted to sin, and his response was he struggled hard against it, and wanted to do right, but had wandering eyes and got involved with a married woman. He was plagued with guilt but kept seeing her a few times before deciding he couldn't do it anymore and confessed to his mentor.

I don't believe for a second this man was faking it. Was he in sin and wrong, yes. Does that mean he faked it, IMO, absolutely not.

Originally Posted by ILG

The reason this discussion can be constructive is because it can help people see why these terrible things can happen while UPC and other like churches can so easily claim to know who is "in" and who is "out". They really don't know who is "in" and who is "out". Things are just not that clear cut. Knowing this can help people not be hurt as often or as deeply.

Sorry, I still don't see anything constructive. Of course terrible things can occur in any church of any denomination. This just sounds like bitter accusations against a former organization of which you used to be a part.