Poll: Is Gods Love Unconditional

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Too many Apostolics forget just how wretched and nasty they once were. Thus, today they are wretched and nasty!

Why don't you go and save yourselves!
God's love has no place in your salvation because you have no salvation!
You have religion, your own good works and your own sense of your faithfulness to a god you have molded to fit into your twisted idea formed by your own self-righteous indignation with those you will be burning in hell next to you at then end of time, unless you see again just how wretched and nasty you are without GOD demonstrating His LOVE to you so that you are even able to be saved.

Look in the mirror, bud.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Look in the mirror, bud.

I did. Before my posting, I thought about not pressing enter.

However, there are people who read this forum who need to read that.

Some people really do forget that they had to be saved before they were ever saved.

Furthermore, God's Love is unconditional as He demonstrated His Love to us before we were even born.

That means, that while you were in your mother's womb, God had already demonstrated His unconditional love towards you-- and not just to you, but to all mankind.

This is a basic tenet of Christianity and I can't for the life of me understand why one earth there would be a debate about this.

There was and is nothing you can do to make God love you.

His Love has been offered to you unconditionally.

Some choose to receive it, but most choose to reject His Love.


ANYONE, even everyone, answer these questions.

Is it possible to be saved absent of God's love?

Are you saved because you loved God or because He loves you?

What was it that made Him LOVE you?

If He demonstrated His Love for you before you were even conceived, what were the conditions of you of receiving His Love?

If there were conditions, were you able to meet them before or after He LOVED you?

[Jermyn Davidson]

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[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

For those who say God's LOVE is not unconditional:

He showed His LOVE for us while we were yet sinners by sending His Son to die for us just so that we can have a realationship with Him.

If that's not unconditional LOVE, then what is it?

If we love Him, it's only because HE LOVED US FIRST-- while we were still wallowing in our own blood and waste, living under a rock, bound by all manner of iniquity and wickedness.

It's His LOVE (or KINDNESS) that even leads a person to repentance in the first place.

Christianity does not start with us.
Christianity starts with Him. His LOVE is demonstrated by His Provision and His Grace towards us.

HE LOVED US FIRST and there was nothing that we could do to earn His Love when He demonstrated (and demonstrates today) His Love.

You can't earn His LOVE, just like your child can't earn your love.

Are we not made in His Image?
Do we have a greater capacity to love our children more deeply than God who LOVES us?

He's the One who CREATED us, CREATED love, and fashioned our ability to even give and receive LOVE in the first place!

God didn't create love. God is love. Love is the very essence of His being. Thus, all that God does is predicated upon... love. God even loves the wicked that He intends to judge. In fact, it is because of His love for creation that God must judge wickedness.

[Antipas]

Many also forget that salvation isn't a static state. The soul evolves and develops.

[Michael The Disciple]

JD

Furthermore, God's Love is unconditional as He demonstrated His Love to us before we were even born.

That means, that while you were in your mother's womb, God had already demonstrated His unconditional love towards you-- and not just to you, but to all mankind.

This is a basic tenet of Christianity and I can't for the life of me understand why one earth there would be a debate about this.

Where do you get this?

If anything happened before we were ever born it was the choosing of the elect.

11 (For the children being not yet born , neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written , Jacob have I loved , but Esau have I hated . Rom. 9:11-13

God did chose us before we were ever born on an unconditional basis. This is the only context where the term "unmerited favor" applies. It was based on nothing that we did. We were not even born.

It was going to be according to the purpose of God. He decided before the world began to draw certain ones to himself. He also decided not to draw certain others. Jacob he loved before he was born. Esau he hated before he was born.

Paul continues:

14 What shall we say then ? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid . 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion . 16 So then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth , but of God that sheweth mercy . Romans 9:14-16

Note God does not say he will have compassion and mercy on everyone but rather upon whom he will. Paul defends God by saying there is nothing wrong with that. Paul shows us why God is just in doing it that way.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up , that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth . 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault ? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom. 9:17-21

Paul reasons since God made the vessels he has the right to do whatever he wants with them. Some he makes for honor others for dishonor. This is called "the sovereignty of God".

So our calling or drawing to God is unconditional in that its based soley on the will of God. As Paul said "who has resisted his will"?

He continues

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called , not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Rom. 9:22-24

Rather than loving all mankind in the mothers womb some are prepared as vessels fitted to destruction. Paul said God is willing to show his wrath and make his power known unto the vessels of mercy.

So it seems we can say Gods love is unconditional in the drawing of the elect. He draws they come. He has willed it to be so. And yet when they do come he then sets out conditions for his love.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:9-10

The condition he presents to us is if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. It isn't that hard to see but I admit its much different than many have been taught.

The true God is love. But his love is nowhere I know of without condition except before we were born.

[MarcBee]

edit, OOPs, I didn't see the M the D post, and sent mine just after, which covers similar territory. Oh, well--he believes the uncomfortable aspects of scripture. I like that.

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

bump

According to apostle Paul, not everyone is even a candidate for God's love, at least in any practical sense. Before Pharoah was even born, he was intended by God to be a "vessel of wrath, fitted for destruction." Same idea with Esau--doomed before birth to serve the shameful purpose God intended. (Rom 9:11-13.)

So, if the christian thinks he/she is rather a vessel destined for honor, then that (salvation) may turn out to be the really practical and eternally comfortable aspect of god's "love." Still, until you enter those pearly gates, it's maybe appropriate to be veh-wy afwaid, acc. to Hebrews 4:1.

[MarcBee]

OOPs, I didn't see M the D post, and sent mine just after, which may cover similar territory. Oh, well--MD believes the uncomfortable aspects of scripture. I respect that.

BTW, the two verses that refer to some concept of "free will" cannot knock out a lengthy, well developed argument of Paul. But I'm sure someone here will try!

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Where do you get this?

If anything happened before we were ever born it was the choosing of the elect.

11 (For the children being not yet born , neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written , Jacob have I loved , but Esau have I hated . Rom. 9:11-13

God did chose us before we were ever born on an unconditional basis. This is the only context where the term "unmerited favor" applies. It was based on nothing that we did. We were not even born.

It was going to be according to the purpose of God. He decided before the world began to draw certain ones to himself. He also decided not to draw certain others. Jacob he loved before he was born. Esau he hated before he was born.

Paul continues:

14 What shall we say then ? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid . 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion . 16 So then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth , but of God that sheweth mercy . Romans 9:14-16

Note God does not say he will have compassion and mercy on everyone but rather upon whom he will. Paul defends God by saying there is nothing wrong with that. Paul shows us why God is just in doing it that way.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up , that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth . 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault ? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom. 9:17-21

Paul reasons since God made the vessels he has the right to do whatever he wants with them. Some he makes for honor others for dishonor. This is called "the sovereignty of God".

So our calling or drawing to God is unconditional in that its based soley on the will of God. As Paul said "who has resisted his will"?

He continues

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called , not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Rom. 9:22-24

Rather than loving all mankind in the mothers womb some are prepared as vessels fitted to destruction. Paul said God is willing to show his wrath and make his power known unto the vessels of mercy.

So it seems we can say Gods love is unconditional in the drawing of the elect. He draws they come. He has willed it to be so. And yet when they do come he then sets out conditions for his love.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:9-10

The condition he presents to us is if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. It isn't that hard to see but I admit its much different than many have been taught.

The true God is love. But his love is nowhere I know of without condition except before we were born.

Yes God choose those before the world began according to his will. However his will is based on justice toward man. Not just oh... hmmm him her... uh him. God chose those based on his seeing how things came about and his reaction to man and his free will BEFORE it happned. It is the natural process of imagination and the resulting actuality and occurence of events. so yes Pharoah was set before the world began as a vessel of destruction BUT Pharoah was a result of his own free will. God knew before creation and it's events how and why things wold transpire. By God know the best result possible the elect destiny of everyone was agreed to. In reality unconditional love has nothing to do with election of predestination. God gave his son because some would turn to him. By simple numbers and foreknowledge.

[Esaias]

It seems people are getting God's love confused with conditions for salvation (and election).

I also see some are flirting with Calvin/Augustine in their understanding of Romans 9.

I see a new thread coming... lol