Moving "forward"?????

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by bishopnl

Well, first of all, I doubt that even the manual attaches a "heaven or hell" level importance to ballgames, even if some individual preachers do attach such importance to it.

But for another, even if the manual does specifically single out ballgames and advises pastors not to go (and I'm not saying it does, b/c I have no clue), most pastors don't publicly preach that or enforce it to their own individual congregations. So Johnnie and Delores probably don't know or care what the manual specifies for ministers who belong to the UPC. The only way I can see it being a problem is if specific pastors or ministers (such as SoCali referenced) preach against it to their local congregations, yet do it anyway.

And yes, some critics do like to point at the UPC's inconsistencies...there are also plenty of people willing to reference the number of "hypocrites" in the Church as the reason why they won't accept Christianity. So what? That's not too mention the obvious fact that "the world" for the most part is unaware of the existence or intricacies of the UPC. We all are, and we know all the flaws, inconsistencies, etc., but most people are blissfully unaware of the existence of such an organization.

I totally disagree. I could name 5 backsliders right now that do not come solely because of inconsistencies. I can also name a few folks that are in church that are extremely disgruntled with the inconsistencies.

I'm not for sure of the exactness of stated "rules". But I'm sure that investigation of such would show us that wordly amusement/sporting events are mentioned as unholy.

I know there are somethings that are evident from org. to org. People are people etc.etc. But when Pastor A. requires such and such for entry to heaven and Pastor B. doesn't? How can that be unity? Sin is Sin.

[bishopnl]

Originally Posted by Kutless

I totally disagree. I could name 5 backsliders right now that do not come solely because of inconsistencies. I can also name a few folks that are in church that are extremely disgruntled with the inconsistencies.

I'm not for sure of the exactness of stated "rules". But I'm sure that investigation of such would show us that wordly amusement/sporting events are mentioned as unholy.

I know there are somethings that are evident from org. to org. People are people etc.etc. But when Pastor A. requires such and such for entry to heaven and Pastor B. doesn't? How can that be unity? Sin is Sin.

Ok. I could name 5 people who won't have anything to do with Christianity at all because of "hypocrisy" in Christendom, but so what? It doesn't mean all Christians are hypocrites. And it usually means that they are looking for an excuse why they won't commit their life to Christ.

As for Pastor A and Pastor B "requiring" something for heaven...I have serious doubts that a majority of pastors in the UPC believe attendance at organized sporting events is an issue that will in and of itself send you to hell. Most pastors I'm acquainted with don't even advise against attendance at such events. Just because a few hardliners preach it their own way, so what? You have varying opinions in every organization. THat's hardly exclusive to the UPC.

Sorry. I just think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. There are a lot of things I can fault the UPC for...but inconsistency from pastor to pastor regarding their stance on organized sports events is way, way, way down at the bottom of the list.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Kutless

On a personal level I can agree with you. One on One no prob. But if you or anyone else thinks that the "world" doesn't look at these things as unexceptable you are horribly mistaken.

If the inconsistancies do not bother you more power to you. I'm glad to see that you are not liscensed! But when speaking about heaven and hell I am hardly able to just overlook them. It sickens me to the core!

Doesn't bother me that he went to a game either....but when Johnie and Deloris hear that the rules state we can't participate yet he is, its bye-bye time.

There is no rule stating we can't go to ball games, wear make-up, pants, participate in sports, go to movies, have beards and all the other traditions. There is no prohibition, just preferences.

And I, for one, thank God for that!

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

There is no rule stating we can't go to ball games, wear make-up pants, participate in sports, go to movies, have beards and all the other traditions. There is no prohibition, just preferences.

And I, for one, thank God for that!

And those evil online forums.....

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

And those evil online forums.....

Evil? They closed THOSE forums down!

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Evil? They closed THOSE forums down!

When were we supposed to send back in that survey?

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

When were we supposed to send back in that survey?

They've been coming in in droves.

Conservatives aren't supposed to send theirs in until November.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

You've got a couple of weeks. They've been coming in in droves.

Well, now we will find out how many would vote if this were the way to vote. And we will find out just how many are leaving in December over the vote.....:sshhh

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by bishopnl

Ok. I could name 5 people who won't have anything to do with Christianity at all because of "hypocrisy" in Christendom, but so what? It doesn't mean all Christians are hypocrites. And it usually means that they are looking for an excuse why they won't commit their life to Christ.

As for Pastor A and Pastor B "requiring" something for heaven...I have serious doubts that a majority of pastors in the UPC believe attendance at organized sporting events is an issue that will in and of itself send you to hell. Most pastors I'm acquainted with don't even advise against attendance at such events. Just because a few hardliners preach it their own way, so what? You have varying opinions in every organization. THat's hardly exclusive to the UPC.

Sorry. I just think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. There are a lot of things I can fault the UPC for...but inconsistency from pastor to pastor regarding their stance on organized sports events is way, way, way down at the bottom of the list.

I do not think all Christians are hypocrites. I do think that a pastor that preaches certain things because of peer pressure IS!

I admit that I have a jaded view. Out of the 4 pastors I've had in my life 3 would probably say they wouldn't want to be at a Cardinal game if the Lord came back. You know the "skirt around the issue" response.

I totally agree that sports is way down the list. And there is quite the list.

But let me quote from a book that was sent by a close friend of mine. The book is entitled "What a Difference a Line can Make"

"While we know there is nothing wrong with playing a game of sports, we as saints of God should not be brought under its power as has our nation and world".

Under the subtitle "The dream and Testimony of my Friend" in the chapter called SPORTS THE GOD OF THIS WORLD we find that God gave this man an answer to his horrific dream in which I will spare you the details.

Gods answer: "I am showing you what you are doing to my youong people by allowing them to be involved in sports.....you are killing them"!

[bishopnl]

Originally Posted by Kutless

I do not think all Christians are hypocrites. I do think that a pastor that preaches certain things because of peer pressure IS!

I admit that I have a jaded view. Out of the 4 pastors I've had in my life 3 would probably say they wouldn't want to be at a Cardinal game if the Lord came back. You know the "skirt around the issue" response.

I totally agree that sports is way down the list. And there is quite the list.

But let me quote from a book that was sent by a close friend of mine. The book is entitled "What a Difference a Line can Make"

"While we know there is nothing wrong with playing a game of sports, we as saints of God should not be brought under its power as has our nation and world".

Under the subtitle "The dream and Testimony of my Friend" in the chapter called SPORTS THE GOD OF THIS WORLD we find that God gave this man an answer to his horrific dream in which I will spare you the details.

Gods answer: "I am showing you what you are doing to my youong people by allowing them to be involved in sports.....you are killing them"!

So you are against organized sports or any particpation therein?

If a pastor is preaching against sports because he feels a certain amount of peer pressure to do so, and not because he really has firm convictions about it, then I agree he has problems. My overall point was that I don't think most pastors are preaching against organized sports, because most of them instinctively recognize that there is nothing biblically or morally wrong with such activities. So if those pastors are going to games, I don't see any problem.

I've read most of "What a Difference a Line Can Make." I respect Bro. Booker, but I have fundamental disagreements with much of what he says there, including but not limited to his beliefs concerning organized sports. Sports, like anything else, is something that must be kept under control, but there is nothing biblically wrong with sports organizations themselves. I've noticed that most pastors who have a problem with organized sports don't have a problem with hunting or fishing...are those activities acceptable simply b/c they aren't organized?

And if God came back, I wouldn't have any problem with me being at the Cardinals game. Since I have the Holy Ghost, I feel he's there with me to begin with, just like he's with me when I go to the mall or when I go to work.