Holiness is Dead!!! - www.fullproof.us

[Newman]

Great article with many good points. And I agree with the author to some degree. I am troubled by the American church today (whatever stripe).

However, I don't know that a particular "holiness" standard or particular forms of separation is the heart of the issue at all.

What we lack; rather it be ultra con or liberal is the same driving commitment and consecration that is exibited around the world. The underground church is thriving in China despite Christians being tortured there. Christian men (known to us as missionaries) were recently butchered in Turkey. And the American church continues to argue about which brand of standards and separation to embrace.

Survival in a Storm
I watched a show/re-enaactment of five people trying to survive in the Ocean for a week on a raft that was NEVER INTENDED TO BE USED AS A SURVIVAL DEVISE. They were without food or water; and sharks were following them because of the blood trail they left because one of them was wounded in the storm...

After the show was over and I thought about it a few days; I told my husband that nobody had to die (as three of them did). We backed up the show to see the beginning again; where their yacht was sinking.

A couple of people ran for the very VISIBLE RAFT and threw it overboard; while one man by himself struggled with a compact capsule about the size of a suitcase; that when activated would pop up like a giant floating tent with specific items for survival such as a gps tracking system; something that made salt water safe to drink, and mirrors for signalling, etc.

The problem was that a couple people had already gone for the visible raft and weren't there to help with the capsule of survival. The man who wrestled with it on his own; could not hold onto it by himself in the storm and after a few hours it blew away while those on the raft looked on.

If the raft wouldn't have been there; I believe the people would have done everything they needed to do; to secure the capsule with the life surviving gear inside.

The Spirit of God Moving in and through People
Likewise; we are told to put on the whole armor of God. An armor that isn't visible to the naked eye and so too often we may cling to tradition because its visible and there is clearly a storm raging around us.

Instead, the church needs to reach for the harder things than tradition. The church needs to put on the whole armor of God that she may withstand the evil of the day and the church needs to pray always.

Because the one constant thing we see in Scripture from the OT to the NT is that when the Spirit of God moves on something or in someone; change happens. And isn't that what we really want and need?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

Don't forget the spirit of liberalism.

While there certainly is merit to your point the pendlum swings both ways.

It does indeed.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I guess MOW is a NO standards man??????????????????????

Standards are out.. 6" might be a foot to MOW he wouldn't want to be legalistic then 14" might be a foot also a foot is anything you believe it is. The is NO definite measurement for a foot! It is a matter of personal choice and we should not just anyone if they believe a foot is 8" who do we think we are to demand 12" to be a foot!

My "Dear" Bro. E....I certainly AM a standards man! I preach standards! However, the standards I preach have very little to do with clothing or hair or jewelry. I preach the principle of holiness. I preach that the most important thing a person can do is to heed the 1st two commandments. Without those, nothing passes muster.

Some label me a liberal due to my wife's "bobbed" hair and the folks at NLC. (and the fact that I wear speedos) That doesn't bother me in the least. I'll put the spirit and attitude of the folks in the church I pastor up against ANY strong outward "standards" church. I'm not saying they're better, but I'll guarantee that they won't be worse. And if they're not worse, what's the point?

I'm more concerned about the "weightier matters of the law."

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Newman

Great article with many good points. And I agree with the author to some degree. I am troubled by the American church today (whatever stripe).

However, I don't know that a particular "holiness" standard or particular forms of separation is the heart of the issue at all.

What we lack; rather it be ultra con or liberal is the same driving commitment and consecration that is exibited around the world. The underground church is thriving in China despite Christians being tortured there. Christian men (known to us as missionaries) were recently butchered in Turkey. And the American church continues to argue about which brand of standards and separation to embrace.

Survival in a Storm
I watched a show/re-enaactment of five people trying to survive in the Ocean for a week on a raft that was NEVER INTENDED TO BE USED AS A SURVIVAL DEVISE. They were without food or water; and sharks were following them because of the blood trail they left because one of them was wounded in the storm...

After the show was over and I thought about it a few days; I told my husband that nobody had to die (as three of them did). We backed up the show to see the beginning again; where their yacht was sinking.

A couple of people ran for the very VISIBLE RAFT and threw it overboard; while one man by himself struggled with a compact capsule about the size of a suitcase; that when activated would pop up like a giant floating tent with specific items for survival such as a gps tracking system; something that made salt water safe to drink, and mirrors for signalling, etc.

The problem was that a couple people had already gone for the visible raft and weren't there to help with the capsule of survival. The man who wrestled with it on his own; could not hold onto it by himself in the storm and after a few hours it blew away while those on the raft looked on.

If the raft wouldn't have been there; I believe the people would have done everything they needed to do; to secure the capsule with the life surviving gear inside.

The Spirit of God Moving in and through People
Likewise; we are told to put on the whole armor of God. An armor that isn't visible to the naked eye and so too often we may cling to tradition because its visible and there is clearly a storm raging around us.

Instead, the church needs to reach for the harder things than tradition. The church needs to put on the whole armor of God that she may withstand the evil of the day and the church needs to pray always.

Because the one constant thing we see in Scripture from the OT to the NT is that when the Spirit of God moves on something or in someone; change happens. And isn't that what we really want and need?

Excellent thoughts, counsellor!!! I echo the sentiment. D:

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Newman

Great article with many good points. And I agree with the author to some degree. I am troubled by the American church today (whatever stripe).

However, I don't know that a particular "holiness" standard or particular forms of separation is the heart of the issue at all.

What we lack; rather it be ultra con or liberal is the same driving commitment and consecration that is exibited around the world. The underground church is thriving in China despite Christians being tortured there. Christian men (known to us as missionaries) were recently butchered in Turkey. And the American church continues to argue about which brand of standards and separation to embrace.

Survival in a Storm
I watched a show/re-enaactment of five people trying to survive in the Ocean for a week on a raft that was NEVER INTENDED TO BE USED AS A SURVIVAL DEVISE. They were without food or water; and sharks were following them because of the blood trail they left because one of them was wounded in the storm...

After the show was over and I thought about it a few days; I told my husband that nobody had to die (as three of them did). We backed up the show to see the beginning again; where their yacht was sinking.

A couple of people ran for the very VISIBLE RAFT and threw it overboard; while one man by himself struggled with a compact capsule about the size of a suitcase; that when activated would pop up like a giant floating tent with specific items for survival such as a gps tracking system; something that made salt water safe to drink, and mirrors for signalling, etc.

The problem was that a couple people had already gone for the visible raft and weren't there to help with the capsule of survival. The man who wrestled with it on his own; could not hold onto it by himself in the storm and after a few hours it blew away while those on the raft looked on.

If the raft wouldn't have been there; I believe the people would have done everything they needed to do; to secure the capsule with the life surviving gear inside.

The Spirit of God Moving in and through People
Likewise; we are told to put on the whole armor of God. An armor that isn't visible to the naked eye and so too often we may cling to tradition because its visible and there is clearly a storm raging around us.

Instead, the church needs to reach for the harder things than tradition. The church needs to put on the whole armor of God that she may withstand the evil of the day and the church needs to pray always.

Because the one constant thing we see in Scripture from the OT to the NT is that when the Spirit of God moves on something or in someone; change happens. And isn't that what we really want and need?

I do concur. Is that a miracle or what?

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I do concur. Is that a miracle or what?

Yes, Bro, it is a miracle!!!!


We still believe in them!!!

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

My "Dear" Bro. E....I certainly AM a standards man! I preach standards! However, the standards I preach have very little to do with clothing or hair or jewelry. I preach the principle of holiness. I preach that the most important thing a person can do is to heed the 1st two commandments. Without those, nothing passes muster.

Some label me a liberal due to my wife's "bobbed" hair and the folks at NLC. (and the fact that I wear speedos) That doesn't bother me in the least. I'll put the spirit and attitude of the folks in the church I pastor up against ANY strong outward "standards" church. I'm not saying they're better, but I'll guarantee that they won't be worse. And if they're not worse, what's the point?

I'm more concerned about the "weightier matters of the law."

We all have standard, ever God believing person I know has them, even the sinner~

[ManOfWord]

And, yet another "standards" thread flounders in the sea of common sense and descends into the watery abyss as nothing but bubbles rise to the surface.