The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Are you ready for this kind of thing? Hypothetically speaking... What if they don't want a smaller building? Often, the elder is challenged to hear the will of the Lord... through the body. Hense being a servant of God's elect.

The church I attend has all Christian backgrounds in it (but they are mostly Baptist). We have well over 70 house churches, many are branches that aren't registered. In all we have nearly 2,000 members. We also have a rather large campus. More traditional meetings are held on Sunday afternoons. However, most teaching, discipleship, and spiritual discipline is carried out in the house churches. It's a great way to do church.

My thinking is that if they want a building, leave it to them. I look at Moses and the Tabernacle. God wanted to dwell with the people, but didn't demand that the tabernacle be built by taxing the people. Instead, He told Moses to lay out the idea and then ask the people to respond with an offering. IF they wanted to build the tabernacle, they would have to make the offerings. There was no mandatory tithe to pay for it. No threats of death or curses. Just lay out what God would like to do and ask for the people to respond if they wanted to do so. That is what I would like to do if down the road the people of the home meetings desired a building of some sort.

Im not against large campuses. I am against using extortion and threats of curses to make people pay for things they don't want or need.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

My thinking is that if they want a building, leave it to them. I look at Moses and the Tabernacle. God wanted to dwell with the people, but didn't demand that the tabernacle be built by taxing the people. Instead, He told Moses to lay out the idea and then ask the people to respond with an offering. IF they wanted to build the tabernacle, they would have to make the offerings. There was no mandatory tithe to pay for it. No threats of death or curses. Just lay out what God would like to do and ask for the people to respond if they wanted to do so. That is what I would like to do if down the road the people of the home meetings desired a building of some sort.

Im not against large campuses. I am against using extortion and threats of curses to make people pay for things they don't want or need.

Great answer.

[*AQuietPlace*]

The reason conversations about tithing are rarely productive is because you're using the same words, but hearing different meanings. When you tell someone - 'I don't believe in tithing', what they HEAR is - 'I don't believe in giving to my local church, or at least not very much'. Might not have been what you meant, but that's what they HEAR. And so they think - 'You're a tightwad'. And close their ears to anything further you might say.

If anyone wants to have a productive discussion on the subject, it might help if you change the terminology a little, or approach the subject from a different angle. If you start out with - 'I believe in supporting my local church and pastor, I believe it's good to give even MORE than 10% if you can.... but I don't believe that the exact number 10% is a LAW that is placed on the New Testament church......" - you might find ears a little more open to your discussion.

In current Christian culture, the word tithing has become synonymous with 'giving to the church'. So when you say you don't believe in it, people are immediately turned off.

[*AQuietPlace*]

I think the house church thing has become slightly romanticized. It sounds great in theory, but if you follow it out to its completion, you can see how churches ended up in church buildings.

Years ago, my parents started a prayer meeting in our house. Started small, and grew. We ended up with 60+ people in our house each week, about 20 of them children. It became problematic. My and my brother's rooms were getting destroyed each week from so many children playing in them, the house was cramped. My mom would clean all day before, and then have to clean all day afterwards. Logistically, it just wasn't working out. So, we moved the prayer meeting to the church, where it worked much better. (since the building was built for the purpose of accommodating a lot of people!)

That, right there, is how the modern church building came to be. It was just more practical.

Are there some problems with our modern ways of having church? Yes. But, as Aquila pointed out, the house church model isn't perfect either.

I've come to learn that there is no such thing as perfection. We should try to get things as close to right as possible, but sometimes as humans we just have to do the best we can with what we have.

[Le Penseur]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Who said it is not important. What is important is this is being taught in "Bible believing" churches and it is a shame. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is prosperity gospel no matter how much one tries to deny it.

"You gotta put your tithe first. now this is not just me trying to get your money, its God trying to get your money. Because if God can get your money he's got your life. If he can get your money he has your heart. Where your treasure is so will your heart follow. Just like Elijah and the widow. I'm gonna tell you there would have been alot of folks offended by the Elijah ministries incorporated. Because he dared tell a little widow woman who was as poor as she could be, and was about to die, last meal before her and her son die. And that preacher. That money grubbin, money hungry preacher, looked at her and said feed me first. But Elijah understood something powerful, if he could get her to feed him, God was obligated to her. If he could get her to feed him, they were going to ocme into a partnership here. Because Jesus said however you receive the ones I send is how you recieve me. You give to a prophet a cup of cold water, you get a prophets reward. So Elijah knows God's gonna take are of him, because he's God's man. So he's saying to the little widow, give it to me first....

Brothers and sisters look at me. I'm the man of God in your life. The tithe that you pay is what I eat my bread from. My family and I survive. And so when you tithe you're entering into partnership, not just with me, but your entering into partnership with God. When you bring your tithe you're entering into an agreement....When you bring your tithe you're entering into a communication with me. Into a partnership with me as your pastor. And what happens is God's going to take care of me. He called me to this place. He put me here and he's going to pay my bills, He's always done it, God's been good to me. But here's what happens when you take a pledge to enter into partnership with God by tithing for the support of the ministry that feeds you spiritual bread. Paul said if we have sown to you spiritual things, is it any great thing that we reap your carnal? i like the way he said that without stuttering. He didn't even blink. He wasn't the least bit embarrassed. He wasn't like I often have been, struggling with defensiveness about asking people for money. Paul didn't seem nervous at all. He just said if I've sown to you spiritual things, how much more valuable, Paul is saying, are the spiritual things that I have given you in terms of the carnal things that I could ask for in return?

Really, lets talk about whose getting the fair end of the deal here. Whose getting something more valuable? You're receiving the Word of God, all I'm gettin' is gold. Gold that is cankered and deteriorates and corrupts. All I'm getting out of the deal is money. Well I hope I'm getting more than that, I hope I'm getting your loyalty and all kinds of other things. But in this exchange whose getting the more valuable thing?"

"So we bring our tithe first so that you can enter into a partnership with God. When you bring your tithe and you bring your offering and you bring your commitment you are entering into an agreement with me. And when you enter into an agreement with me, you've got God on your side. Because now you've brought a prophet a cup of cold water and now you're about to step into a prohets reward. Now see thats been terribly distorted by the TV preachers, and the prosperity gospel guys. They've turned that into nothing but just a way to rip people off and get money from people when they are offering nothing in return. But when you do it right, it works." (end quote)

Sorry, bro. I was going to respond several times, but each time I was too angry to do so. I've sat through many of these sermons and have even been sucked into the emotion that goes with it. The thing that angers me so much is the emotional manipulation that goes into things like this.

The UPC church I used to attend would bring in a guest speaker whenever there was a new "need" that the pastor needed everyone to support. He would fly his friend in from San Diego, and he would preach almost the identical sermon every time. We always thought it was interesting that whenever there was some huge financial need that the church needed to sacrifice for, always seemed to coincide with members of the royal family getting new luxury cars and SUVs. That church was at one time averaging around 1200 people, and had built a new $8M complex in 2001.

I have very little tolerance for this type of preaching and emotional/spiritual manipulation and abuse.

[Le Penseur]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

The reason conversations about tithing are rarely productive is because you're using the same words, but hearing different meanings. When you tell someone - 'I don't believe in tithing', what they HEAR is - 'I don't believe in giving to my local church, or at least not very much'. Might not have been what you meant, but that's what they HEAR. And so they think - 'You're a tightwad'. And close their ears to anything further you might say.

If anyone wants to have a productive discussion on the subject, it might help if you change the terminology a little, or approach the subject from a different angle. If you start out with - 'I believe in supporting my local church and pastor, I believe it's good to give even MORE than 10% if you can.... but I don't believe that the exact number 10% is a LAW that is placed on the New Testament church......" - you might find ears a little more open to your discussion.

In current Christian culture, the word tithing has become synonymous with 'giving to the church'. So when you say you don't believe in it, people are immediately turned off.

Good point!

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

The reason conversations about tithing are rarely productive is because you're using the same words, but hearing different meanings. When you tell someone - 'I don't believe in tithing', what they HEAR is - 'I don't believe in giving to my local church, or at least not very much'....

In current Christian culture, the word tithing has become synonymous with 'giving to the church'. So when you say you don't believe in it, people are immediately turned off.

Good point!

It is deeply ingrained! I had a late night conversation with a friend from church last night via telephone. She called to ask me to pray regarding her transportation situation. Her family is without a car that runs and they live out in the country. Her daughter is only 8 and it is a long walk to the bus stop and we've had a lot of heavy rain and she has missed school. I know her husband makes a good living so I asked if she would mind sharing what they are spending their money on as supernatural help is not always required for a natural problem and having gone through debt counseling many years ago I am now a stickler for budgets.

Now these folks do have a lot of bills above a mortgage and utilities... medical expenses and no insurance, a son with fines to probation, just to name a few. Really nothing they could just quit paying unless they let their furniture be repossessed. And they tithe and give offerings of $600 a month to the church. So I suggested that maybe they could cut that back enough to make a payment on an economy car. Maybe by half. She just can't she says because she believes that something terrible will happen. That her husband will loose his job or that her son will fall back into drugs.

So I asked if she had stopped paying tithe when her son fell into drugs the first time or when any of the calamities that befell their family and left them without transportation were happening... Well of course not she says... she has ALWAYS BEEN FAITHFUL.

So knowing that the pastor lives in an upscale suburb (not in the area where the church is), just got a new lake house and has two cars and a Harley Davidson motor cycle and the associate pastor takes some really nice vacations and is sporting a couple of nice new suits and the fellowship hall was just redone... I asked her about maybe going to the church for help... But of course she feels she can't do that because they do have a house (they live in an older model mobile home) and food... and well... you just don't ask your church for help unless you are without groceries...

Where did these ideas come from? Well from the ministry that lets their congregants go without while they have a huge surplus of course! Who would want to look like a tightwad in front of those people?

[Le Penseur]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Good point!

It is deeply ingrained! I had a late night conversation with a friend from church last night via telephone. She called to ask me to pray regarding her transportation situation. Her family is without a car that runs and they live out in the country. Her daughter is only 8 and it is a long walk to the bus stop and we've had a lot of heavy rain and she has missed school. I know her husband makes a good living so I asked if she would mind sharing what they are spending their money on as supernatural help is not always required for a natural problem and having gone through debt counseling many years ago I am now a stickler for budgets.

Now these folks do have a lot of bills above a mortgage and utilities... medical expenses and no insurance, a son with fines to probation, just to name a few. Really nothing they could just quit paying unless they let their furniture be repossessed. And they tithe and give offerings of $600 a month to the church. So I suggested that maybe they could cut that back enough to make a payment on an economy car. Maybe by half. She just can't she says because she believes that something terrible will happen. That her husband will loose his job or that her son will fall back into drugs.

So I asked if she had stopped paying tithe when her son fell into drugs the first time or when any of the calamities that befell their family and left them without transportation were happening... Well of course not she says... she has ALWAYS BEEN FAITHFUL.

So knowing that the pastor lives in an upscale suburb (not in the area where the church is), just got a new lake house and has two cars and a Harley Davidson motor cycle and the associate pastor takes some really nice vacations and is sporting a couple of nice new suits and the fellowship hall was just redone... I asked her about maybe going to the church for help... But of course she feels she can't do that because they do have a house (they live in an older model mobile home) and food... and well... you just don't ask your church for help unless you are without groceries...

Where did these ideas come from? Well from the ministry that lets their congregants go without while they have a huge surplus of course! Who would want to look like a tightwad in front of those people?

A case study in emotional and spiritual abuse!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I think the house church thing has become slightly romanticized. It sounds great in theory, but if you follow it out to its completion, you can see how churches ended up in church buildings.

Years ago, my parents started a prayer meeting in our house. Started small, and grew. We ended up with 60+ people in our house each week, about 20 of them children. It became problematic. My and my brother's rooms were getting destroyed each week from so many children playing in them, the house was cramped. My mom would clean all day before, and then have to clean all day afterwards. Logistically, it just wasn't working out. So, we moved the prayer meeting to the church, where it worked much better. (since the building was built for the purpose of accommodating a lot of people!)

That, right there, is how the modern church building came to be. It was just more practical.

Are there some problems with our modern ways of having church? Yes. But, as Aquila pointed out, the house church model isn't perfect either.

I've come to learn that there is no such thing as perfection. We should try to get things as close to right as possible, but sometimes as humans we just have to do the best we can with what we have.

AQP, you’re so right. The house church model isn’t perfect, because it’s comprised of imperfect people. However, I did have some comments (not meant in any way to be criticisms) regarding your post.

I’ve mentioned that I am part of a house church network of over 70 listed house churches. Each has daughter house churches that are not yet listed because they have yet to have an established elder. We have a rather large campus in Centerville Ohio. However, if we decided to sell or lost that campus, our network would continue to function without missing a beat. There are techniques in house churching. Also, there is a mindset that must be embraced.

In your post above, you stated:

Years ago, my parents started a prayer meeting in our house. Started small, and grew. We ended up with 60+ people in our house each week, about 20 of them children. It became problematic. My and my brother's rooms were getting destroyed each week from so many children playing in them, the house was cramped. My mom would clean all day before, and then have to clean all day afterwards. Logistically, it just wasn't working out. So, we moved the prayer meeting to the church, where it worked much better. (since the building was built for the purpose of accommodating a lot of people!)

Why in the world did you allow a house church to grow to 60+ people??? On average, we don’t allow a house church to grow much past 15 or 20 (including young people). Once a house church becomes a “logistical problem” we see that house church as “pregnant”. At this point she has gathered plenty of “members”, but she hasn’t turned them loose. So a pregnant house church has three options.

1.) Allow the hosts to become frustrated and close up shop.
2.) Choose to collect offerings and focus on a building to meet in.
3.) Multiply.

I vote... 3.) Multiply.

When a church becomes logistical problem you have an awesome situation and a golden opportunity! You should speak to the entire house church about how large it’s become and how this is the normal course for a house church. Explain the need to multiply by splitting up the group. Ask for them to pray that God put “hosting” on the hearts of a family in attendance. Also, it’s good to assess who lives where on a large map. Determine where the hosts live. Find a way to start a new house church nearby or closer to a few families that live quite a distance. Then assess who in your house church shows leadership gifts. Leadership gifts can be seen in knowledge of the Word, good temperament, being prayerful, a desire to share and edify the body, a faithful family, etc. Pull them aside and begin mentoring them by allowing them to lead the meetings. As their relationship and leadership skills grow with the group, slowly hand them the reigns. Then YOU take the new family willing to host a new house church and begin meeting with them in their home. You might also ask for a hand full of people to come with you (depending on the group). Now you have two house churches! If both house churches are healthy, both are going to grow until they are logistically problematic. Then you train the elder you left in charge of the first to mentor another leader. You then begin mentoring a leader in the new house church you’re attending. You should eventually see both house churches multiply together. Now you’re at four house churches! Lol

It’s actually very fun and very rewarding seeing the Kingdom of God grow. It sounds to me like you didn’t have a strategy for multiplication and your house church became way too much to handle.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It sounds to me like you didn’t have a strategy for multiplication and your house church became way too much to handle.

It wasn't a house church, and never intended to be one. It was just a prayer meeting, comprised of members of our church. It just started out as something small that my parents wanted to do, just a few families, but it kept growing and growing.

I just used that as an example of why people tend to move into church buildings.

I'm not against house churches, I think they can be great if they are structured correctly. I just don't think we should view them through rose-colored glasses.

You make some great points, and have good strategies. But there can still be logistical issues for someone just starting out. The church I attend has been discussing doing home meetings during the week. But there are a few obstacles we've discussed. For one thing, our church members are very spread out. We are from one end to the other of a very large metroplex area. Several of our members drive an hour to get there. For them to go on to someone's house would make their drive even longer. We just don't have any really central houses.

Most of our women work outside the home. I work, and have a houseful of kids, too. But I'd want my house CLEAN if people were coming over. So I'd have to get off of work and go straight to scrubbing and straightening... to be honest it would be pretty stressful for me. (maybe I should be more spiritual, but there you go )

And then you have the issue of having enough people capable of leadership. If we split off into several homes, we'd need leaders for those meetings. Our church is very new, with a lot of new members. We simply do not yet have enough capable leaders at this time.

So logistically, for us right now, the church is the best meeting place.