Faith Without Works...

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

You are arguing from a finished work paradigm(RC Sproul, Lutzer) of the cross as our(forensic) righteousness. That is not scripture. Justification is God's consideration of our response to him. Thus it is a practical righteousness through faith in his leading. Sanctification is God's Word given to set you apart. Justification is God's consideration if you are walking by faith/proper response to his Word and judged faithful to it.

I'm arguing from scripture and I posted them there for you.

I would agree mental assent does not justify, btw (referencing your earlier comment). So would those list of names you cited above.


God is not considering us, God has fully accepted us through Jesus. That's the Gospel, Luke!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

correct. Gen 15:6 is not about a one moment of belief. James and Paul both show faith to have been judged by time and response.

Amen! I believe that everyone teaches a justification by faith. But, there are two views. One view has a more mental consideration or verbal communication. The other view understands that, just as Romans teaches, faith cannot ever be separated from obedience. That is my view as well.

[A.W. Bowman]

Romans 4:2 (KJV)
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law : for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

-------------------

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Gen 26:1-6 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar . And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

-----------------------

Kids, you have to think Hebraic, not Aristotelian.

As long as one thinks in an abstract (Western) world view, the relationship between passages such as those noted here, shall remain forever a paradox; where people can feel free to pick and choose whatever verses they think supports a particular viewpoint, rather than integrating God's word into a beautiful tapestry.

When it looks all disconnected and the patterns are not discernible - turn it over and look at it from the other side.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I'm arguing from scripture and I posted them there for you.

Rom 5:9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.


uh nothing here that argues against my points.

1 Cor 15 Let me now remind you, dear brothers and sisters,[a] of the Good News I preached to you before. You welcomed it then, and you still stand firm in it. 2 It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you—unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.[b]

Nothing here either. Believing is doing/responding to the context of what is given.

1 Peter 2:24 He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By his wounds you are healed.

I think you like posting a bunch of nothing scriptures. Nothing here either.

dead to sin and LIVE for what is right. sheesh

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


yep through faith(response to God's Word) PEACE! How by righteousness that we realize THROUGH JESUS. How by coming into covenant that he is the husband of because of his D,B,R we can be a new creation cleansed from sin and folloing his Spirit.


Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

notice the designation. "apart works of the law." LOL so you grab whatever says "works" and you make a case vs the contrast of what I said? LOL You are not even in the same context of "works" as what I said.

I would agree mental assent does not justify, btw (referencing your earlier comment). So would those list of names you cited above.

Sproul and all the others believe a one time faith and once saved you cannot lose salvation and whatever you do at that point has nothing to do with salvation.

God is not considering us, God has fully accepted us through Jesus. That's the Gospel, Luke!

He accepts those that do his will which are faithful. Justification by definition is consideration/judgment.

Heb 5:9
John 15:4-15

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

Romans 4:2 (KJV)
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law : for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

-------------------

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Gen 26:1-6 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar . And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

-----------------------

Kids, you have to think Hebraic, not Aristotelian.

As long as one thinks in an abstract (Western) world view, the relationship between passages such as those noted here, shall remain forever a paradox; where people can feel free to pick and choose whatever verses they think supports a particular viewpoint, rather than integrating God's word into a beautiful tapestry.

When it looks all disconnected and the patterns are not discernible - turn it over and look at it from the other side.

Just simply Hebrews 11:8 - By faith Abraham obeyed. It is impossible to separate faith from obedience.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

Romans 4:2 (KJV)
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law : for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

-------------------

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Gen 26:1-6 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar . And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

-----------------------

Kids, you have to think Hebraic, not Aristotelian.

As long as one thinks in an abstract (Western) world view, the relationship between passages such as those noted here, shall remain forever a paradox; where people can feel free to pick and choose whatever verses they think supports a particular viewpoint, rather than integrating God's word into a beautiful tapestry.

When it looks all disconnected and the patterns are not discernible - turn it over and look at it from the other side.

Amen!

abraham life was judged "righteous" "faithful" "friend.' That is why scripture is fulfilled in James 2 and shows Gen 15:6 is not about a moment in time of God's consideration but of a view of his life. Paul ALSO says Gen 15:6 is about time duration and not a single moment of belief.

Rom 4:18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, "So shall your offspring be."
Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."

TIME PAST AND WHY IT WAS COUNTED/CONSIDERED to him as righteous or that which is right to do. God judged him.

s 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Fulfilled it COME TO PASS/FULLNESS. Gen 15:6 is about his life not a single moment of mental assent.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Just simply Hebrews 11:8 - By faith Abraham obeyed. It is impossible to separate faith from obedience.

yep...

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

correct. Gen 15:6 is not about a one moment of belief. James and Paul both show faith to have been judged by time and response.

actually the Bible is quite clear here. Abraham believed God and it was counted for him righteousness. God didn't show he knew Abraham would truly follow HIm though until He willingly offered up His son Isaac.

So Faith was made perfect in action. However Faith is what got him righteousness.

Hence true faith will always have a willingness to obey God.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

s 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Fulfilled it COME TO PASS/FULLNESS. Gen 15:6 is about his life not a single moment of mental assent.

Again the Bible clearly teaches that Abraham was imputed righteousness WHEN he believed God. Faith is made perfect in action, YES. But Faith is the saving component. If in fact Abraham didn't believe God and still had action, He would not be declared righteous. He had to have faith.

Thats why religious ritual will get someone no where unless they have pure faith and trust in Christ, whatever they are doing.

Abraham didn't just have mental assent like Devils have mental assent that God exist.. Abraham planned in his mind to prepare "the baby room" as he truly believe God would give him the promise. Thats more than mental assent, thats expectation

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

actually the Bible is quite clear here.

Obviously not because below you totally ignored what Paul said and James said about Abraham and his life and Gen 15:6. you also don't understand what "counted" is referencing in relation to God.

khaw-shab'
A primitive root; properly to plait or interpenetrate, that is, (literally) to weave or (generally) to fabricate; figuratively to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense); hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute: - (make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon (-ing be made), regard, think.


Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

what is the "IT" to him? We will let the NET explain...

Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD considered his response of faith as proof of genuine loyalty.

does Paul say this was a frame of time? Yes! I quoted it in another post.

Rom 4:18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, "So shall your offspring be."
Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."

Does James consider "this consideration" a span of time? Yes!

as 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Abraham believed God and it was counted for him righteousness. God didn't show he knew Abraham would truly follow HIm though until He willingly offered up His son Isaac.

Yes he did as he judged Abrahams response to his Word as James and Paul BOTH point out. You point also misses it. James said he WAS justified by offering Isaac but GOd "considered" his response JUST to his call to do.

So Faith was made perfect in action. However Faith is what got him righteousness.

Faith was made perfect "full" "complete" as faith has a proper response.

Hence true faith will always have a willingness to obey God.

No not according to James. James says Devils have a ture belief and I don't think they have a willingness. Also the reason you reasoned as you did is because of a false paradigm you have of faith. LIVING Faith IS responding. You cannot say WILL have a willingness. Agreeing to the knowledge of facts or truth doesn't make you have a willingness. Shall we start with addictions and a whole host of otehr examples besides the devils. FAITH IS RESPONDING to God's Word. Thus it is judged FAITHFUL in its own process(context). you can being in process of finishing God's call but you response up to that time is full.