The Proverbs 11 Thread

[Socialite]

Prax, where are you pasting from? Could you provide a link? Thanks.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Prax, where are you pasting from? Could you provide a link? Thanks.

Im pasting from commentaries, no link. If you don't know what the initials mean let me know. I have a lot of other commentaries too

[Socialite]

Prax, even the NET Commentary says this (an alternate view to mine):

capturing (לָקַח, laqakh; “to lay hold of; to seize; to capture”) people with influential ideas.

This is a general proverb. Wise people influence and "win friends/souls." Win/Persuade/Influence.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Im pasting from commentaries, no link. If you don't know what the initials mean let me know. I have a lot of other commentaries too

No, I get many of them, but sometimes it's easier to read from the source.

Thanks though.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Ferd, you said you liked the message on Proverbs 11, but what about the fact that this isn't a translation issue but a textual issue?

NET:An alternate textual tradition reads חָמָס (khamas) "violent" (reflected in the LXX and Syriac) and refers to taking away lives: "but the one who takes away lives (= kills people) is violent" (cf. NAB, NRSV). The textual variant was caused by orthographic confusion of ס (samek) and כ (kaf), and metathesis of מ (mem) between the 2nd and 3rd consonants. If the parallelism is synonymous, the MT reading fits; if the parallelism is antithetical, the alternate tradition fits. See D. C. Snell, "'Taking Souls' in Pro_11:30," VT 33 (1083): 362-65.

Explain the bolded.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Ferd, you said you liked the message on Proverbs 11, but what about the fact that this isn't a translation issue but a textual issue?

NET:An alternate textual tradition reads חָמָס (khamas) "violent" (reflected in the LXX and Syriac) and refers to taking away lives: "but the one who takes away lives (= kills people) is violent" (cf. NAB, NRSV). The textual variant was caused by orthographic confusion of ס (samek) and כ (kaf), and metathesis of מ (mem) between the 2nd and 3rd consonants. If the parallelism is synonymous, the MT reading fits; if the parallelism is antithetical, the alternate tradition fits. See D. C. Snell, "'Taking Souls' in Pro_11:30," VT 33 (1083): 362-65.

I said I liked what it said in the sense that it is a paraphrase. I also said I did not think The Message was accurate/true to the orriginal text.

As I said, the message can be used to gain insight. I do not think it can stand alone. There are obvious issues.. as I also pointed out.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I said I liked what it said in the sense that it is a paraphrase. I also said I did not think The Message was accurate/true to the orriginal text.

As I said, the message can be used to gain insight. I do not think it can stand alone. There are obvious issues.. as I also pointed out.

Which translation is the most "true to the text?" When we say that, we are really meaning we prefer literal, word-for-word translations, which don't always work the best when translating even languages like Spanish to English, let alone an archaic language to English (or to Old and Middle English to English).

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Socialite

That's not the point of what he's saying. Neither is he wise just because he could get wealth (the equivalent). (And Proverbs is most likely not all written by Solomon, by the way, it's most likely a collection of "wise sayings" ie, a glorified fortune cookie).

The rest of what you are saying just isn't in the passage IMO. Shepherding, "capturing," "turning hearts toward God," none of that is really there. It's an Evangelical force into the Text. It doesn't mean what you are saying isn't a true statement (possibly). For example, someone who is wise (speaking of a believer) is likely one influencing people toward Christ. The statement isn't false. But neither does that mean this is what the Proverb has in view.

BTW... would love to have someone respond to either my two posts. Not as a challenge, but just so I know we are continuing a discussion.

Pro 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;

Most of what I said, I never said was "in the passage". I was speaking topically of wisdom, influence, righteousness as it pertains to the OT, not to this one verse of proverbs.

However as I pointed out before proverbs begins with that theme of warning the unrighteous...again please note my last post was NOT NOT NOT about salvation in the modern church sense but temporal deliverance...good comes to the righteous and folly to the unrighteous. You would want to warn your friends about that. Wisdom seeks to warn them

Pro 1:20 Wisdom cries outside; she utters her voice in the streets;
Pro 1:21 she cries in the chief place of gathering, in the openings of the gates; in the city she utters her words, saying,
Pro 1:22 How long will you love simplicity, simple ones? And will scorners delight in their scorning? And will fools hate knowledge?
Pro 1:23 Turn at my warning; behold, I will pour out my Spirit to you; I will make my words known to you.
Pro 1:24 Because I called, and you refused; I stretched out my hand, and no one paid attention;
Pro 1:25 but you have despised all my advice, and would have none of my warning.

Pro 1:30 They would have none of my counsel; they despised all my correction,
Pro 1:31 and they shall eat the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own desires.
Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple kills them, and the ease of fools destroys them.
Pro 1:33 But whoever listens to me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

See? Forget for a moment the idea of modern evangelism for Eternal salvation, because Im not even talking about that

The book of proverbs begins with the idea of turning people to wisdom, to correction, from the pathway that brings destruction. That's what wisdom does. What do the wise do? Solomon was wise and that is exactly what he is doing in Proverbs...seeking to influence the unwise, the unrighteous, to take a better path

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Prax, even the NET Commentary says this (an alternate view to mine):

capturing (לָקַח, laqakh; “to lay hold of; to seize; to capture”) people with influential ideas.

This is a general proverb. Wise people influence and "win friends/souls." Win/Persuade/Influence.

Yes? That's also what I said. I quoted it several times now.Ive been saying for ever that it's about influencing people. Doesn't influencing people to be your friends not include impressing on the unrighteous the pathway of righteous, because they are your friends and because since you are able to be their friend not only would you want to help them, they are more likely to listen?

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Which translation is the most "true to the text?" When we say that, we are really meaning we prefer literal, word-for-word translations, which don't always work the best when translating even languages like Spanish to English, let alone an archaic language to English (or to Old and Middle English to English).

I do prefre more literal translations. I realize there are still some issues but paraphrase verisons like The Message seem to me to have more issues.

Prov. 11:30 is a classic example...