So is it a gift? Or is it a product that we purchase?
I understand the principle that you're conveying here. And I think that I'm in agreement to an extent with your application. But aside from obedience to His commandments, there's nothing I can do to purchase salvation. I'm not making Christ's words absurd, but think your literal application of a parable is absurd.
We do good works because of our faith in response to grace, but good works are not an installment payment against a GIFT I've already received.
Read what the definition of purchase is.... "an exhange"
Jesus constantly teaches exchanges for salvation...
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
We purchase that which he alone has....
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Last edited by TheLegalist; 07-02-2010 at 02:54 PM.
And still more arrogance from a know-it-all legalist/pharisee/judaizer. I'm not the one using proof texting scriptures out of their context and application and saying they mean something they don't. You are the one with the theological fallacy.
Quote:
but think your literal application of a parable is absurd.
Jesus constantly teaches salvation at a cost! Your view is that we do nothing in exchange for salvation goes against literally every teaching of Christ. He is author of salvation. If there is a condition to obtain. It isa purchase!
Christianity is about death and resurrection. We die to sin and self and are raised again to live a life of obedience and holiness in the fear and reverence of God. If one isn't living according to God's Word... they've not died to sin and self. A dead man doesn't complain about how he's dressed. A dead man doesn't complain about where he's taken. A dead man doesn't complain about the way his hair is done. If one has died to sin and self, obedience is easy. It becomes a "labor of love" towards the one who saved you.
Christianity is about death and resurrection. We die to sin and self and are raised again to live a life of obedience and holiness in the fear and reverence of God. If one isn't living according to God's Word... they've not died to sin and self. A dead man doesn't complain about how he's dressed. A dead man doesn't complain about where he's taken. A dead man doesn't complain about the way his hair is done. If one has died to sin and self, obedience is easy. It becomes a "labor of love" towards the one who saved you.
I think that's very true, FB. That understanding comes only with maturity in Christ, and that growth is stunted in certain environments. I confess that I once had a relationship with God that was largely fear based. It took me a long time to move away from that into a relationship with God where I really *knew* that He loved me, unconditionally.
Apostolics are taught New Testament concepts but introduced to the Old Testament God. "God loves you--but be afraid, be very afraid (to screw up)."
I believe there are certain Christian disciplines that we do well to observe. I don't see them as "standards" per se, but I do see value in them. Arbitrary rules I'm not big on. Here is an excerpt from my own personal "articles of faith":
Christian Disciplines:
After we are saved from sin, we are commanded, "Go, and sin no more" (John 8:11). We are commanded to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:12) and warned that without holiness no one shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). We must present ourselves as holy unto God (Romans 12:1), cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit (II Corinthians 7:1), and separate ourselves from all worldliness (James 4:4). We are to dress modestly and with distinction between genders (Deuteronomy 22:5; 1Timothy 2:8-10; 1 Peter 3:3-5). For this reason we believe that women should wear modest tops, skirts, and dresses as opposed to any immodest clothing and women’s pants. Likewise men are admonished to wear clothing that has modest necklines, sleeves, and leg length. We accept that the Bible teaches that it is shameful for a man to wear long hair; however a woman’s long hair is her glory (I Corinthians 11:14-16). Therefore men are to maintain short hair and women should maintain long hair. Hair shouldn’t be worn with any extreme as to cut and/or style. As Christians we understand that it is our responsibility to guard against unwholesome and inappropriate entertainments (Job 31:1; Psalm 101:2-3; Isaiah 33:15-16; Luke 8:14; I Thessalonians 5:22; 1 John 2:16). If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (I Peter 4:18). No one can live a holy life by his own power, but only through the Holy Spirit. "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you" (Acts 1:8).
I think that's very true, FB. That understanding comes only with maturity in Christ, and that growth is stunted in certain environments. I confess that I once had a relationship with God that was largely fear based. It took me a long time to move away from that into a relationship with God where I really *knew* that He loved me, unconditionally.
Apostolics are taught New Testament concepts but introduced to the Old Testament God. "God loves you--but be afraid, be very afraid (to screw up)."
You don't think the New Testament God is scary?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Yep...but I don't think this scripture is a mandate for us to make sure everyone else "loves Him." If we see someone not keeping HIS commandments, we can assume they don't love Him. If we catch ourselves not keeping His commandments, we know we have a heart issue.
Hopefully, keeping His commandments is distinct from keeping man-made commandments, especially insofar as it's used as a measuring stick.
He didn't say, "If you love me, keep every man-made church rule." He said, "If you love me, keep MY commandments."
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
I think that the way of dealing with sin in the OT was more immediate and harsh and therefore more frightening. (Mostly because the carrying out of punishment was up to fallible men instead of a God who could see into the hearts of men.)
I would much rather trust God to be merciful than to trust a man to judiciously execute His judgments. The NT removes a middle man from the equation. God is still to be feared and respected, but He can also be trusted.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
I think that the way of dealing with sin in the OT was more immediate and harsh and therefore more frightening. (Mostly because the carrying out of punishment was up to fallible men instead of a God who could see into the hearts of men.)
I would much rather trust God to be merciful than to trust a man to judiciously execute His judgments. The NT removes a middle man from the equation. God is still to be feared and respected, but He can also be trusted.
if you love me.... 
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