DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,

[Justin]

Originally Posted by DAII

Wow ... that's strong .... Yowser.

Originally Posted by DAII

The Grays, Apostolic missionaries to Japan

Originally Posted by DAII

For the record.

Originally Posted by DAII

WAS WONDERING WHEN WE RETURN TO THE OLD LANDMARKS?

"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years." ---

Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss)

Dan,

Couldn't someone say that these pictures and testimonies were isolated incidents and didn't represent a "true sample" of today's "Holiness Standards"?

Possibly these woman cut their hair before the "revelation" of 1 Corinthians 11?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

My only observation is this:
If someone is in the UPCI and they don't like it they can vote with their feet.

If someone is not in the UPCI what does it matter? If they want to do the whole "Apostolic Identity" thing ... so what? It is their org, so they can. Doesn't bother me none as I am not in the club.

It's not a matter of being "bothered." It's a matter of discussion among other Apostolics about faulty interpretations of scripture, and damaging mission statements for the church.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Brother David

My own family members and my children are deeply influenced by what the UPC says and does. A couple of years back I brought up the whole "Holy Magic Hair" thing with my daughter.

"What's that?" she asked.

I explained the gist of the idea behind HMH and she shocked me by responding, "But that's what I believe."

No way! But, there it was in my own home. It is important that we stand up to the historical revisionism, the false doctrine and the "gospel" that is often preached that excludes Calvary and the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

My daughter was used by "headquarters" recently in one of their "Apostolic Identity" promotions. I was troubled by the idea going in. It was part of the Youth Dept's scheme to overcome the silly accusations that followed in the wake of the Youth Congress in 2007.

Can you imagine? With my track record, my kids are still the paradigm of "Apostolic Identity?"

I don't really have a problem with it and my daughter had a great time. But I am still going to add my two cent's worth and reach out to the org to maintain some semblance of balance.

Are you still UPCI?
Shocking that your influence with your daughter hasn't gone anywhere. Maybe it speaks to your concern not to be pushy.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by brother david

we are not doing the fellowship nor the church any service by always ducking our heads and never asking the tough questions. For the oneness movement to thrive we need to have a body of powerful individuals. The current status quo in so many areas where we see leadership wracked by poor esteem issues which they then take out on a silent and submissive flock will only lead to our demise.

great!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Justin

Dan,

Couldn't someone say that these pictures and testimonies were isolated incidents and didn't represent a "true sample" of today's "Holiness Standards"?

Possibly these woman cut their hair before the "revelation" of 1 Corinthians 11?

Instead of asking Dan, ask these folks or their families.

There were many "revelations" that were given in the mid Twentieth Century. These "revelations" and innovations were sold to a younger generations as "The Old Paths" and such. The real history of the development of our "holiness standards" however is quite a bit different.

My wife's mother used to cut her hair. She cut my wife's older sisters hair regularly too. Then a "revelation" came along and my wife has never cut her hair even once in her entire life, same thing with my daughter.

If you ask them why they'll make a weak appeal to 1 Corinthians 11, but a stronger appeal to "tradition."

But just what kind of tradition is this that was introduced some time in the 1950's after the third sister was born and before the fourth? It's an innovation. Plain and simple.

So, let's be plain about that. Uncut hair on women is not some "old path" or "old timey tradition." It's as new as space rockets and satellites.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Justin

Dan,

Couldn't someone say that these pictures and testimonies were isolated incidents and didn't represent a "true sample" of today's "Holiness Standards"?

Possibly these woman cut their hair before the "revelation" of 1 Corinthians 11?

Justin, is that true?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Are you still UPCI?
Shocking that your influence with your daughter hasn't gone anywhere. Maybe it speaks to your concern not to be pushy.

I'm not UPCI, technically. I turned in my card back in the spring/late winter of 1998. As I've testified on here before, a preacher later made a false accusation against me from the pulpit in front of my children. I took it straight to the UPC District Board and pretty much demanded a review.

I was accepted for reinstatement, even with my "facial hair," but I did not pursue it further than that. Also, with the many changes that have been made over the last 20 years or so I probably wouldn't make a comfortable fit.

And notice: I haven't changed my doctrine. I still preach the same things I preached as a card carrying UPC man. The UPCI changed it's doctrine. So much for sticking to "the old paths."

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Justin, is that true?

I was posing the question. I have no idea if it's true. But this would be a response I would expect to hear from those who uphold the current "Holiness Standards".

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Justin

I was posing the question. I have no idea if it's true. But this would be a response I would expect to hear from those who uphold the current "Holiness Standards".

Read the first sentence:

Originally Posted by DAII

[DAII]

Justin, what we find is two waves crashing at the merger when it came to how to view and teach holiness.

Initially, the PCI manual's verbiage on Holiness was adapted at the merger.

This is how it read in the PCI manual and the UPCI manual at the merger:

(PCI manual, circa early 1940's)

Notice they simply reiterated scripture with little commentary .... and this inferentially allows an indivual pastor to interpret and apply bible-based holiness as they deemed in their local congregations.

Quite frankly we cannot call these "revelations" new ... as we can find many who held dress standards before 1948 ... especially as taught and documented by some of the radicals of the pre-cursor Holiness movements.

These arguments regarding Holiness were very much part of the theological discussions among Methodists and others with Wesleyan roots in the 1800's and the turn of the century.

What we dont find .... is a pre-defined laundry list in the Articles Faith until nearly a decade after the merger .... until the resolution process was properly utilized and appeals by some who wanted "stronger" language to apply to all across the fellowship were institutie

.... in 1954 an amendment was added...

The Article of Holiness was amended to its present day language.

What is nefarious ... I believe .... is the attempt to whitewash, sanitize, censor and present the facts as if we were lockstep in what is the majority view today.

We find leadership of the pioneering OP Apostolic generation to hold markedly distinct views on Holiness and the New Birth ...

This is more about the will of a few or even a majority imposed on the rest of the organization ...

With direct democracy, comes as our founding fathers wrote about in the Federalist papers, the tyranny of the majority.

Tyranny of the majority leads to the group dynamic of peer pressure and ostracization.