Rick Warren Statement

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by notofworks

It's possible that others on AFF could better me in talent, education, preaching ability, and biblical knowledge. But no one could top me (match me, possibly) in my passion for the local church and making sure the line of believers behind me is as long as possible. I live for nothing else. I'm completely consumed by it and nothing else in this world inspires me. Of course, my personal family is #1 and our personal circumstances are the only thing that keep me from working every waking minute that I'm not asleep.
So if there's ever the impression that I'm not serious about Jesus Christ or the mission of the local church or the ecumenical church, I've been misunderstood.

As far as the mission of the local church....when one reads the New Testament, one must be aware that nearly every instruction given is with an awareness of the impact it will have on those that are outside the faith. I don't see that the early church had any other care than to spread the redemption of Jesus Christ to everyone possible. The church is based on the Cross of Jesus Christ and the purpose of the cross was the redemption of mankind.

And I love the fact that guys like Rick Warren, who could take it easy for the rest of this life and be very happy that 40,000 people call Saddleback their home, is still as passionate as ever about reaching people. The same can be said of Bill Hybels, Andy Stanley, Perry Noble, Erwin McManus, and others.

I once saw Eddie Long, who is a part of the TBN bunch that I don't care for at all, speaking at a gathering of ministers. In the middle of his message, he was overcome with agony for how little he had done for Christ. I had never heard of him at the time. He wept like I've never seen anyone in a sermon and he bent over double and tears poured from his eyes and....I know this is yucky...but stuff poured from his nose as he wept. There wasn't an ounce of dignity in him. He finally said, "When I realize how many people are in this city that need Jesus, the agony is unbearable", and he started the process all over again.

I tell this because I looked up Eddie Long and found out that he pastored a church of 30,000 people. I don't ever want to lose my passion for those who don't know Christ. It's the only thing in life that really matters to me.

Great to hear you say these things. In fact I can't actually say the same concerning my own zeal.

I was just saying - the ratio may change as time goes on. Not that your zeal diminishes per se. Of the 40,000 at saddleback I doubt the majority would be identified as unbelievers.

I do think you show your sincerity here on AFF. Not sure that you aren't "misunderstood" by many.

BTW ...... nevermind .., I'll start a new thread later tonight!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Great to hear you say these things. In fact I can't actually say the same concerning my own zeal.

I was just saying - the ratio may change as time goes on. Not that your zeal diminishes per se. Of the 40,000 at saddleback I doubt the majority would be identified as unbelievers.

I do think you show your sincerity here on AFF. Not sure that you aren't "misunderstood" by many.

BTW ...... nevermind .., I'll start a new thread later tonight!

Read his book "The purpose driven church"...you'll see what percentage are real believers or not. Church numbers are exaggerations at times. In most churches you have your full timers, part timers and visitors

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Read his book "The purpose driven church"...you'll see what percentage are real believers or not. Church numbers are exaggerations at times. In most churches you have your full timers, part timers and visitors

I have not read that book but i know stats can be complicated - and often are designed that way.

Even in our Pentecostal churches, have you considered the large disparity between
1. Membership
2. Attendance
3. Constituency

Attendance may be three times that of Membership. And "Constituency" could be five to ten times the figure given for membership.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I have not read that book but i know stats can be complicated - and often are designed that way.

Even in our Pentecostal churches, have you considered the large disparity between
1. Membership
2. Attendance
3. Constituency

Attendance may be three times that of Membership. And "Constituency" could be five to ten times the figure given for membership.

yes of course I have considered it, that is why I can say what I have been saying

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

yes of course I have considered it, that is why I can say what I have been saying

Right.... Of course this numbers game is a bit of a different thing than what I was actually addressing with NOW. My point was an audience with a majority of unbelievers, agnostics, and lesbians might change as a church becomes established with second and third generation believers.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Right.... Of course this numbers game is a bit of a different thing than what I was actually addressing with NOW. My point was an audience with a majority of unbelievers, agnostics, and lesbians might change as a church becomes established with second and third generation believers.

The numbers thing is always true. Churches change a lot. I have a friend that goes to Calvary Chapel. They are supposed to be a large church...there will be times for weeks he won't go, just sitting around.

He told me that a LOT of the membership are actually visitors from other churches looking to "hookup" ;-)

People will come and go. Unbelievers will become believers. But for some reason churches are willing to count heads in such a way as to make it seem they have more real members than they actually do,.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The numbers thing is always true. Churches change a lot. I have a friend that goes to Calvary Chapel. They are supposed to be a large church...there will be times for weeks he won't go, just sitting around.

He told me that a LOT of the membership are actually visitors from other churches looking to "hookup" ;-)

People will come and go. Unbelievers will become believers. But for some reason churches are willing to count heads in such a way as to make it seem they have more real members than they actually do,.

How would you propose they count heads?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

How would you propose they count heads?

If they would give the average Sunday attendace that would be a good baseline to judge the size of an organization/church.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

If they would give the average Sunday attendace that would be a good baseline to judge the size of an organization/church.

Do most churches really not keep track of stats like that or do they just not post them?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Great to hear you say these things. In fact I can't actually say the same concerning my own zeal.

I was just saying - the ratio may change as time goes on. Not that your zeal diminishes per se. Of the 40,000 at saddleback I doubt the majority would be identified as unbelievers.

I do think you show your sincerity here on AFF. Not sure that you aren't "misunderstood" by many.

BTW ...... nevermind .., I'll start a new thread later tonight!

Of course, I understand. It would be hard to have a large percentage of unbelievers with a church that large.

Luke 15:1 says that tax collectors and notorious sinners often came to hear Jesus speak. I want the same kind of crowd that Jesus had....desperately. I have been amazed at the difference between preaching to "church people" and "unchurched people". Night and day. With the "unchurched crowd", I don't feel as though I ever need to perform, I don't ever feel compared to anyone's former pastor, and I don't ever feel like I'm being picked apart. It's really incredible.

Like I said....I struggle greatly with the TBN crowd but what Eddie Long did that night hit me hard. I've never forgotten it and I fight tears every time I have the imagery of him saying what he did.