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  #81  
Old 07-20-2018, 12:15 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: What's the difference?

Good grief.
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  #82  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:37 PM
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Re: What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Good grief.
Well this all explains a lot.. Not what you said just the state of where things are. Good grief is right.
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  #83  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:49 PM
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1ofthechosen 1ofthechosen is offline
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Re: What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So, Jesus made new wine which was not alcoholic, but the mockers thought the apostles were drunk on new wine which was 2 or 3 days old? So then wine is alcoholic or not based on what you want it to be, instead of on what it is? Jesus didn't make "new wine fresh off the press". There was no press. There was simply Holy Ghost power. It was wine, and it was considered by the host of the wedding as "the best".

The Scriptures say that wine was given by God to man along with bread and oil. Nobody drank "non alcoholic wine" in the bible, unless you count vinegar. The tetotaler is certainly within their rights to abstain from all wine. But to declare that someone else is somehow not right with God just because they drank wine is wholly unscriptural.

Jesus was accused of being a winebibber. This would have been an impossible and ridiculous accusation that would have held no water with anyone if Jesus and His disciples were dedicated to zero tolerance and total abstinence, like John the Baptist was. He was accused of being a winebibber by Pharisees, who certainly had no prohibition against drinking wine in moderation. Therefore, it is inescapable that Jesus and His disciples did in fact drink wine in moderation, as everyone else in Palestine did except for Nazarites.

I am not trying to encourage anyone to drink wine. But I am trying to discourage people from making claims that simply cannot be supported by Scripture and which contradict Scripture. THAT is more dangerous than drinking a glass of Cabernet with your dinner. Far more dangerous.
But He ate with Drunkards you don't believe we are the first generations of people that recognize birds of a feather flock together. And you can make wine without yeast. Look up about the Jews who started Welch's Grape Juice.

Y'all can try to justify a reason to drink if you like but it's wrong anyway.. No one said anyone wasn't right with God for drinking. But I did say you can't call yourself a overcomer if you are bound by the beggarly elements of this world. Drinking and smoking and all of that,are the branches of the tree,not the root. And not one of you can use the Bible to support why you drink in this day and age, when you can buy 1000's of supplements, vitamins, and drink 1,000s of different non alcoholic beverages. They in the Bible were under a whole different set of circumstances as we are, there's too many options to substantiate drinking.. But hey Carry on!!
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  #84  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:01 PM
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Re: What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
But He ate with Drunkards
Good grief is right.
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  #85  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:22 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: What's the difference?

I find it interesting that most don't seem to realize how much of their doctrine regarding alcohol was developed as part of the mid 1800's Temperance movement, not specifically in response to the Bible. This anti-alcohol social movement eventually succeeded in gaining enough political influence to pass and implement the bloody and crime ridden nightmare of Prohibition in 1920. Prohibition was eventually ended in 1933 to help stabilize society by using the free market to put the black market for alcohol out of business.

It was during the Temperance movement that preachers began condemning all alcohol as sin and ignoring all texts indicating otherwise. However, their understanding of wine doesn't agree with Scripture or even the interpretations of most Christians down through history, including the Greek speaking Greek Orthodox churches. These fundamentalists argued that "oinos" (wine) strictly applied only to unfermented grape juice. However, this is far from reality. The Greek term "oinos" is actually a general term for wine (fermented or unfermented). For example, in Ephesians it is used by Paul for fermented wine:
"Be not drunk with wine [oinos]" (Ephesians 5:18)
Those who oppose the drinking of alcohol, in any quantity, argue that Jesus would not have turned the water into wine, as He would have been promoting the consumption of a substance that is tainted by sin. In this understanding, alcohol itself is inherently sinful, and consumption of alcohol in any quantity is sin. That is not a biblical understanding, however. Some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…” From these and other Scriptures, it is clear that alcohol itself is not inherently sinful. Rather, it is the abuse of alcohol, drunkenness and/or addiction, that is sinful (Ephesians 5:18; Proverbs 23:29-35; 1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Therefore, it would not have been a sin for Jesus to create a drink that contained alcohol.
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  #86  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:27 PM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
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Re: What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I find it interesting that most don't seem to realize how much of their doctrine regarding alcohol was developed as part of the mid 1800's Temperance movement, not specifically in response to the Bible. This anti-alcohol social movement eventually succeeded in gaining enough political influence to pass and implement the bloody and crime ridden nightmare of Prohibition in 1920. Prohibition was eventually ended in 1933 to help stabilize society by using the free market to put the black market for alcohol out of business.

It was during the Temperance movement that preachers began condemning all alcohol as sin and ignoring all texts indicating otherwise. However, their understanding of wine doesn't agree with Scripture or even the interpretations of most Christians down through history, including the Greek speaking Greek Orthodox churches. These fundamentalists argued that "oinos" (wine) strictly applied only to unfermented grape juice. However, this is far from reality. The Greek term "oinos" is actually a general term for wine (fermented or unfermented). For example, in Ephesians it is used by Paul for fermented wine:
"Be not drunk with wine [oinos]" (Ephesians 5:18)
Those who oppose the drinking of alcohol, in any quantity, argue that Jesus would not have turned the water into wine, as He would have been promoting the consumption of a substance that is tainted by sin. In this understanding, alcohol itself is inherently sinful, and consumption of alcohol in any quantity is sin. That is not a biblical understanding, however. Some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…” From these and other Scriptures, it is clear that alcohol itself is not inherently sinful. Rather, it is the abuse of alcohol, drunkenness and/or addiction, that is sinful (Ephesians 5:18; Proverbs 23:29-35; 1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Therefore, it would not have been a sin for Jesus to create a drink that contained alcohol.
I really doubt any one of us will convince the rest of us to change the way we think about alcohol consumption.
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  #87  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:43 PM
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1ofthechosen 1ofthechosen is offline
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Re: What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
I really doubt any one of us will convince the rest of us to change the way we think about alcohol consumption.
That's the wisest thing said throughout this whole argument . I agree.
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  #88  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:47 PM
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1ofthechosen 1ofthechosen is offline
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Re: What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I find it interesting that most don't seem to realize how much of their doctrine regarding alcohol was developed as part of the mid 1800's Temperance movement, not specifically in response to the Bible. This anti-alcohol social movement eventually succeeded in gaining enough political influence to pass and implement the bloody and crime ridden nightmare of Prohibition in 1920. Prohibition was eventually ended in 1933 to help stabilize society by using the free market to put the black market for alcohol out of business.

It was during the Temperance movement that preachers began condemning all alcohol as sin and ignoring all texts indicating otherwise. However, their understanding of wine doesn't agree with Scripture or even the interpretations of most Christians down through history, including the Greek speaking Greek Orthodox churches. These fundamentalists argued that "oinos" (wine) strictly applied only to unfermented grape juice. However, this is far from reality. The Greek term "oinos" is actually a general term for wine (fermented or unfermented). For example, in Ephesians it is used by Paul for fermented wine:
"Be not drunk with wine [oinos]" (Ephesians 5:18)
Those who oppose the drinking of alcohol, in any quantity, argue that Jesus would not have turned the water into wine, as He would have been promoting the consumption of a substance that is tainted by sin. In this understanding, alcohol itself is inherently sinful, and consumption of alcohol in any quantity is sin. That is not a biblical understanding, however. Some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…” From these and other Scriptures, it is clear that alcohol itself is not inherently sinful. Rather, it is the abuse of alcohol, drunkenness and/or addiction, that is sinful (Ephesians 5:18; Proverbs 23:29-35; 1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Therefore, it would not have been a sin for Jesus to create a drink that contained alcohol.
Jesus turning the water to wine was 10% about the wine at the wedding. But that wine is the universal type of transformation, and He was showing that He was the transformation all in Himself.
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  #89  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:33 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I find it interesting that most don't seem to realize how much of their doctrine regarding alcohol was developed as part of the mid 1800's Temperance movement, not specifically in response to the Bible. This anti-alcohol social movement eventually succeeded in gaining enough political influence to pass and implement the bloody and crime ridden nightmare of Prohibition in 1920. Prohibition was eventually ended in 1933 to help stabilize society by using the free market to put the black market for alcohol out of business.

It was during the Temperance movement that preachers began condemning all alcohol as sin and ignoring all texts indicating otherwise. However, their understanding of wine doesn't agree with Scripture or even the interpretations of most Christians down through history, including the Greek speaking Greek Orthodox churches. These fundamentalists argued that "oinos" (wine) strictly applied only to unfermented grape juice. However, this is far from reality. The Greek term "oinos" is actually a general term for wine (fermented or unfermented). For example, in Ephesians it is used by Paul for fermented wine:
"Be not drunk with wine [oinos]" (Ephesians 5:18)
Those who oppose the drinking of alcohol, in any quantity, argue that Jesus would not have turned the water into wine, as He would have been promoting the consumption of a substance that is tainted by sin. In this understanding, alcohol itself is inherently sinful, and consumption of alcohol in any quantity is sin. That is not a biblical understanding, however. Some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…” From these and other Scriptures, it is clear that alcohol itself is not inherently sinful. Rather, it is the abuse of alcohol, drunkenness and/or addiction, that is sinful (Ephesians 5:18; Proverbs 23:29-35; 1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Therefore, it would not have been a sin for Jesus to create a drink that contained alcohol.
Please post the source link when copying/pasting from another website. Also should put in quotation marks to show it is a quote from another person.

Last edited by n david; 07-20-2018 at 04:40 PM.
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  #90  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:36 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Re: What's the difference?

he was passing that off as his own opinion. Lol. Where else has he done that?
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Please post the source link when copying/pasting from another website.
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