Hell In Question

[jaxfam6]

Speaking of Hell. you know what I miss? back in Ohio and up in New York State we used to get some Heluvagood cheese and chip dips. Can't get anything that good out here.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bro., no offense intended, but after seeing your reaction to refutations I made in the past, specifically using Romans 5, I see no point in presenting a rebuttal to you. You just want to believe UR no matter what. But I believe you are a good man.

Brother Blume,

What would the purpose be for an "eternal Hell of torment"? Why would our God oversee an eternal torture chamber? So for me the question of Hell rests in it's purpose. If it is God's way of tormenting the wicked and unbelieving forever is it for entertainment or unending vengeance??? Or is it a place were the wicked are eternally "destroyed"?...which really isn't any better seeing that well over 90% of all mankind will find their place here after death.

Or is it a place of punishment and correction where the souls of the wicked and unbelieving are purified through God's just judgment in the flames as silver is purified in the fire?

I firmly believe there is a Hell. I just wrestle with what is it's purpose? What's the point? After BILLIONS and BILLIONS and BILLIONS and BILLIONS of Millennia...what purpose will Hell have served? If we answer this question...then we can see Hell's reality for we will understand it's design. As they say...form follows function.

I often ask questions because it all really troubles me.

Let's imagine a 16 year old Hindu girl, who has never heard the gospel, drowns. Popular teaching and religious tradition insists that her soul will be brought before God who orders her to be confined to a burning hell. Then she will be resurrected to stand before the throne of God on Judgment Day where it will be discovered that her name isn't in the book of life. Then she will be officially sentenced to a never ending hell in the lake of fire where she will burn for billions, and billions, and billions, and billions, upon billions, and billions, and billions of millennia....and she's NEVER going to be released.

Same situation with a 16 year old American girl who wasn't raised in a religious home and simple finds religion "strange". She's invited to church one night by a friend but is a little nervous about going so she doesn't go. Instead she goes to a party with some friends and dies in a tragic car accident on the way home. Popular teaching and religious tradition insists that she too will suffer the same fate as the Hindu girl.

These two souls will be burning in Hell for so long their earthly lives will eventually be less than a sliver of their existence, there's a good chance that there will come a point when the memory of their earthly lives will fade into oblivion and they will not even know why they are in Hell or even if there was an alternative. Endless screaming and torments, their souls will exist in a state of borderline insanity, in a horror and torment filled conscious reality. Their thoughts will be little but flickers of individuality as the next wave of pain and torments floods their being, second after second....for unending minutes, hours, days, years, centuries, and millennia. At some point their existence will be simply tortured their earthly lives not equating to a nano second in time.

What could a 16 year old girl do to possibly deserve such an existence?

What is the purpose of this?

Next you have to ask...if Jesus died to save the world....why will over 90% of everyone who has ever lived find this their eternal fate??? If Jesus died to save the world...and Satan's desire is to separate humanity from God....who wins with over 90% of humanity forever burning in horror and torments? Really...who wins? I know at the Marriage Supper there will be "Mission Accomplished" banners hung above the tables with care....but with the vast majority of humanity burning forever and ever, and ever, and ever....who really won? And how shallow would one have to be in order to be able to celebrate knowing that the vast majority are roasting in a devil's Hell forever?

What purpose does this serve?

Also consider this, if death is no more...there can only be life...for if the condition of death (both physical and spiritual) continue death remains. Also, if there isn't any crying, pain, or sorrow...how can that be said if it exists anywhere in the universe?

I believe that Jesus said some interesting things. Jesus spoke a couple parables about judgment....

Luke 12:47-48
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:58-59
58When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

In the Scriptures above it is implied that punishments are both temporary and are delivered in varying degrees.

Psalms 86:9
All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

The Greek word here is "goy" (go'-ee) meaning "nations" or "peoples". Here the Psalmist is saying that all the peoples whom God has made shall come and worship before him, glorifying his name. How can this be true if the vast majority of all the nations and peoples that God created are lost forever?

Those are just a few of my questions.

God bless you bro.

[Aquila]

Here's another thing that has come to my attention recently. We are commanded to pray for all men...

I Timothy 2: 1-6.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Now...if I'm to pray for all men and intercede in prayer for their salvation, seeing that God will have all men to be saved....am I not supposed to have faith that this is actually possible? Because James wrote....

Romans 14:23
.... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

If I do not pray believing that this is actually possible...is it not a sin? Am I not supposed to believe that it is indeed possible that all men be saved as God commands us to intercede for all?

Just some random thoughts.

[onlygrace]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's another thing that has come to my attention recently. We are commanded to pray for all men...

I Timothy 2: 1-6.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Now...if I'm to pray for all men and intercede in prayer for their salvation, seeing that God will have all men to be saved....am I not supposed to have faith that this is actually possible? Because James wrote....

Romans 14:23
.... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

If I do not pray believing that this is actually possible...is it not a sin? Am I not supposed to believe that it is indeed possible that all men be saved as God commands us to intercede for all?

Just some random thoughts.

Hey, I thought Paul wrote Romans.

[hadassah]

Hey, I have wondered some of these things myself. How about some good scriptural answeres. God Bless all

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onlygrace

Hey, I thought Paul wrote Romans.

You're right. Paul wrote Romans. I have no idea why I said "James". lol Brain fart.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by hadassah

Hey, I have wondered some of these things myself. How about some good scriptural answeres. God Bless all

I wish I had the answers. It would appear to me that a holy, just, and loving God wouldn't inflict excessive punishment or torments on any sou, only that which was necessary to correct a soul.

William Barclay once wrote....

"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.

Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.

But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.

First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.

Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.

Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.

Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God. "
- William Barclay,
The Letters of James and Peter.
The Daily Study Bible Series.
Philadelphia:Westminster, 1978. 242-243

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I wish I had the answers. It would appear to me that a holy, just, and loving God wouldn't inflict excessive punishment or torments on any sou, only that which was necessary to correct a soul.

William Barclay once wrote....

"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.

Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.

But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.

First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.

Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.

Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.

Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God. "
- William Barclay,
The Letters of James and Peter.
The Daily Study Bible Series.
Philadelphia:Westminster, 1978. 242-243

I agree with William Barclay, to God be the glory!!!

[Raven]

I agree with Crakjak about William Barclay!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Raven

I agree with Crakjak about William Barclay!

Hello, my dear friend! Yes, the hope of mankind is settled, all will eventually worship Him.