Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

[LUKE2447]

THe new covenant could not take place until at least the resurrection of the Messiah. He had to be ALIVE again for the Bride. Christ was the OT husband that had a harlot for a wife. According to law she could not remarry her first husband again if she had received a certificate of divorce from her first husband and then married another. Thus the only way Christ could make her his bride again was for the husband(Messiah) to die thus cancel the contract. Thus he died for his bride taking upon the shame of the harlot. Thus when he was alive again he could take his bride again. So to have a new contract that which was dead had to become alive. You cannot have a new contract until that person could agree to it. Christ was not resurrected yet. So to say the thief was under the new covenant would be incorrect. As several have said the new covenant is the DEATH BURIAL "AND" RESURRECTION!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

If the thief on the cross died under the old covenant, why was he promised "paradise" which is the new covenant reward? I think the new covenant doesn't take effect practically until Pentecost. No one was baptized after the death of christ until pentecost.

That is if paradise refers to heaven and not to the place of the righteous dead

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

It would make sense that it was in the name of Jesus. The practice was to be baptized in the name of the one you followed.

Exactly. When one reads note it says "Jesus made more disciples than John" also when Paul found the disciples he first asked if they had received the Spirit, when they said they did not even know about it Paul asked how they were baptized.

[scotty]

Lets see, where do I start.....well start with some common sense scripture. First we will do away with trying to disect it to the point that some try to make it confusing by starting with this verse.

Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.


God did not give his Word to confuse or alienate people. He gave it to show us the way and give us true light and understanding. Even a fool will stand before God without excuse.


I don't believe that salvation comes with a few lines of scripture that tell us to simply believe. There are many commands and teachings from Jesus and the apostles concerning how salvation works. Believing is more than just a thought or speaking.

1 John 3
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence

The very grace that brings salvation can only happen through obedience. Many will say that this is mans way of saving himself, that I am trying to save myself through my own works. I tell you that my salvation is laid down in scripture for all to see.

Hebrews 5
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


John 14
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.


There are many scriptures that speak of " believe on Him and you shall be saved", but what does it mean to believe on Him ? I believe Love and thus obedience must both be a part of that belief as stated above. Lets look at obedience...


Genesis 26
4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,
5 because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."


Well, so much for sin and the Ten Commandments. Oh how many times I have heard people say, "the Bible doesn't say its a sin, it just says its a shame". Above we see Abraham was blessed not only because he kept Gods commandments but because he obeyed His requirements, decrees and laws.


Revelations 14
11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Here we see that obedience is a must in order to be in Gods favor, from Abraham in Genesis to the Revelation saints. The word "obedience" in all of its forms appears 432 times in the Word of God. Let's see how obedience works with salvation.

1 Peter 1
21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

What's that? Obeying the truth purifies us ?? We are "born again" by living and enduriing the Word of God ? Hmmm.

Romans 16
25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him—
27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

What a statement, the revelation of the gospel of Jesus Christ is revealed and made known , why ? So that all nations might , just believe ? No...believe and obey !!

So whats Love got to do with it ? (no not the song)


1 John 4
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

There are many others I could quote here, but this pretty much is all inclusive. Now, lets see how the Word of God shows us that love and obedience are essential to salvation.

Daniel 9
4 I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed:
"O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands,
5 we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws.

John 14
15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 15
9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete

1 John 2
4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

[scotty]

So if we seek salvation, we must believe on God with love and obedience to His Word. So then what does His Word tell us to do in order to be saved ?

Acts 2
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


Looks like more that just believing is required here. Water and Spirit baptism are a must.


John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Mark 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Also notice how whenever "believers" had not fulfilled all that was commanded for salvation the Apostles were quick to correct them and fulfill the will of God.

Acts 8
14 ¶ Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


These were not only believers, but believers who had been baptized. If they were saved at this point, then why the rush to pray for the Holy Ghost ? If one recieves the Spirit of God upon belief as some say then would not these believers already have it ?


Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


These were believers. If belief is all it takes then why bother with baptism in Jesus Name ? And once again , believing does not mean you have recieved the Holy Ghost.

How can so many plans of salvation be wrong ? I say they are not wrong as they stand on scripture, yet I do say they are incomplete. Do we take a job at entry level and become content to stay there ? Of course not. We strive, work, study and push with all we have to move up, better ourselves and become all we can in our line of work. Why should our salvation be any different ? Why would we not do all we can to fully experience and become all that God expects us to. Is it enough to just believe ? The Bible says you must be more than just rooted in Christ.


Luke 3
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

From here Jesus proceeded to tell them that other works relating to loving others and working for the body of Christ are expected. He says it is not enough to say "I know the Father". That only gives you root in the Truth. If you do not obey and thus grow and produce fruit, then you will be cut away.

[Praxeas]

Scotty I have a question for you. God told Abraham to go sacrifice his son on a mountain of Moriah...he had to obey we all agree.

But was he believing God before he got to the Mt or was he believing only after he finished doing what God said?

Why can't someone be a believer before baptism with the full intent on obeying the command to be baptized and they go through with it?

Clearly if someone says they believe but do not obey they never were believing

[scotty]

As for the theif/death bed gimmics I’m not going to be full of scripture with this one. Just going to try and invoke some common Holy Ghost sense here. I do believe you must repent, be baptized in Jesus name and be filled with the Holy Ghost by evidence of speaking in tongues in order to be saved by the grace of God. Now, about the “death bed scenarios”.

1. Has anyone ever personally experienced (in the third person of course) a person who has repented on their death bed? If no, then step away from the keyboard. If yes then,

2. Did this person go on to receive the Holy Ghost by evidence of speaking in other tongues? If no, then step away from the keyboard. If yes then,

3. Did same person go on to the grave or did their situation turn back to the living?


I may be wrong, but I would be willing to say that few made it past #2 and if so I would be interested in their answer to #3. Thing is people, we are above this and God is definitely far above this. God knows the heart. Is that person in repentance because of their situation ? Who wouldn’t be ? If so, will God honor repentance then?

Do we really think God is this shallow? I don’t think so, I think God is far from the thinking of the flesh that started this thread. We are putting Him in a box with His own Word and not stopping to think….He is God.

First off, If one truly repents from their heart, they will receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, it is promised. Now, that being said, the question is , “what about water baptism?”. Well to be honest with you , I don’t know. But I have to ask, do we really think for one minute that if baptism is required of that person in order for their salvation to be complete that God is going to fill them with the Holy Ghost and then just leave them there to die without the chance of water baptism? Since when did we start believing that death is victorious over God? Is He not able to bring one back from a death bed? Would He not do so in order that one could be saved who is now willing with a repentant heart?

We are trying to mold water. If you had read the Bible front to back having never read it before, would you have been waiting on Paul to be struck down with fire or lightening at some point? I was. God fooled me too. He proved that He does not think as I do, nor does He work as I do.

Jesus made an exception on the cross. Can He make an exception on the death bed ? Sure, He is God. Do I throw away all the scripture telling me to obey the Word of God and what it says I am to do to be saved ? Not hardly. To do so would be to say that I am one of God's exceptions. Maybe some are Godly enough to make that claim. I myself don't plan on being so foolish as to make that claim.

On the broader, more general discussion. We have seen this thread a million times. It has been rehashed and ressurected in hundreds of different styles using hundreds of different scenerios. They all end the same. So what exactly is the point here ? Why keep bringing them up?

What tv shows rate the highest ?
Why do are some people addicted to tabloids?
Why do some insist on starting threads that are divisive?
How do those same ones actually call themselves teachers?

Credibility and good willed discussion for the purpose of lifting each other up is all but lost. Keep leading Dan, I don't know where your going. But this road you always take us down is so full of discontent and strife that it always ends in the same. Think I'll take a different road, find a different teacher. We will be known by our fruits, yours just never seem to be any good.

Good day and God bless,

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Scotty I have a question for you. God told Abraham to go sacrifice his son on a mountain of Moriah...he had to obey we all agree.

But was he believing God before he got to the Mt or was he believing only after he finished doing what God said?

Why can't someone be a believer before baptism with the full intent on obeying the command to be baptized and they go through with it?

Clearly if someone says they believe but do not obey they never were believing

That is a question I have pondered myself. Did he go up on the mountain believing God would spare his son or did he go up out of pure obedience, ready to accept whatever God chose?

I may not be understanding what it is your asking, I do not see why someone can not believe prior to baptism. But I also do not think that believing alone will save you.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by scotty

That is a question I have pondered myself. Did he go up on the mountain believing God would spare his son or did he go up out of pure obedience, ready to accept whatever God chose?

I may not be understanding what it is your asking, I do not see why someone can not believe prior to baptism. But I also do not think that believing alone will save you.

My point is Abraham believed even before he finished doing what God commanded. The fact he was going to do what God commanded was evidence he DID believe.

So a person can be a believer even before the do "Everything" that the bible says to do, yet are doing them/in the process of doing them.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

How can you possibly take that from what I said?

I said: The effects of the cross were benficial and accounted even before Calvary.

You then ask: Are you saying the cross has no benefit at all?

Either you're not paying attention or you're deliberately attributing the exact opposite to what I say.

This is exactly what you said, Pel:

My only point in arguing here is to say that anyone who was ever "saved" from anything was saved by the grace of God. Remember, even Noah was "saved" by grace (Genesis 6:8). "Oh," you say (well not "you" but "they"), Noah was "saved" by building the ark! Works!

Not so, at least I don't think so. Where does it say that Noah was "saved" by that boat? 1 Peter 3:20-21 says that it was the "longsuffering of God that waited..." and then attributes Noah's salvation not to the boat, but to the flood. The "eight souls" were "saved by water..."

Ah, ha! Water "saves" us? No, for Peter tortuously goes on to say that the obvious effects of the water are in fact meaningless. What ultimately saves us in Peter's view is the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21).

So after all of that, I would say that the thief was "saved" by the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his faith in that event. The thief himself said, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom..."

The Dispy style arguments, in my view, fail here. What ultimately matters was that the thief had faith in Jesus Christ, and the fact that Jesus Himself was able to prove Himself faithful.

My response was to your post that is in quotes above.

I deeply resent what appears to be a deliberate attempt to undermine my preaching of the Gospel.The effects of the cross were benficial and accounted even before Calvary.

Where did you say "I said: The cross perhaps has a greater benefit than what we've considered.? Are you confusing another post with the one I was responding to? How was I suppose to come to the conclusion from what you posted that "the cross perhaps has a greater benefit than what we've considered"?

And I resent that you think Peter is saying water baptism is "meaningless" and that what ultimately saves us in Peter's view is the resurrection"
Because of which I responded "Does that mean Jesus' death on the cross and the blood He shed for us was without effect as well without the resurrecton?"

IMO, you are saying we are saved by the resurrection alone and denying that Peter said baptism saves us because of the resurrection which is the total opposite of what Peter, in my mind, is saying. And that you were disannuling what Peter said about baptism completely and agreeing with what Paul teaches that without the resurrection, and if there be not resurrection, then Christ's death was in vain, our faith is in vain, and we are still sinners! Which is saying the cross is of none effect and no consequence if Christ was not raised from the dead. And then you are taking this argument to say that baptism is meaningless when in fact the resurrection affirms or confirms the cross and in 1Pet 3:21 the resurrection affirms water baptism...we are baptized for the dead...meaning when we die and are judged for the deeds we did in the flesh, the remission of sins we received at baptism and the continued benefit of the blood of Christ after baptism through repentance will have been what keeps us from condemnation while standing before the throne of Christ.

I also added a couple of verses that shows the necessity of the resurrection and made an additional comment that the resurrection reinforces the salvific nature of water baptism.

1Cor 15:13-17 .....and if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain, ye are yet in your sins.

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The fact that Christ rose from the dead doesn't take away from the salvific nature of water baptism but reinforces it!

You respond by saying: "Pelathais says the cross has no benefit at all?"

No hard feelings intended here, but I just can't escape feelings of resentment over such a gloss.

Sorry, I caused you to feel resentment over something I wasn't accusing you of saying and likewise that you misunderstood me. You may need to read some of 1 Cor 15 to see where I'm coming from and why I thought you were talking along these lines in your post esp in regards to Peter implying that the resurrection ultimately saves us, which it does.

I never said "the resurrection take[s] away from the salvific nature of water baptism..." I quoted the very words of Peter himself when I said "that baptism doth now save us... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." That's what the Book says (1 Peter 3:20-21).

You also said this: Ah, ha! Water "saves" us? No, for Peter tortuously goes on to say that the obvious effects of the water are in fact meaningless. What ultimately saves us in Peter's view is the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21).

And I'm contending that yes, ultimately the resurrection saves us but it does not render meaningless water baptism but on the contrary it reinforces it! And I believe that is exactly what Peter is saying as well...baptism saves because Christ rose from the dead. If He wasn't resurrected the cross and the blood shed on the cross would be of none effect, we would still be in our sins and when we meet death, we would be found lacking.

Since the discussion involved the "salvation" sought for and apparently found by the Thief on the Cross, and the fact that this Thief was never baptized caused me to look for similarities between those who are "saved" and baptized and those who are "saved" and not baptized in the Bible. One similarity that leaps from the pages of the Bible is the hope for and faith in the resurrection of the Savior.

I haven't read the whole thread but I believe the thief was an exception in a time of flux between the two testaments and Jesus had the power to forgive sins by His word. I wasn't addressing this part of your post. I was mostly addressing the 1 Peter 3:21 verse. I do agree with you that the thief seemed to believe that Jesus was the Christ and would live again to rule a kingdom. I would speculate the same as you that faith saved the thief but I wouldn't go to the lengths you went to to disprove the salvific nature of baptism in 1 Peter 3:21 and the further implications you are trying to bring about through that.

Add to this the fact that no one has even attempted to disprove my assertion that John's baptism was "for the remission of sins..." and that this "remission of sins" was accounted before the cross. The only response I get from that point is "Nuh-uh." No one has even attempted to address Mark 1:4; Luke 1:77; and Luke 3:3.

Are you saying no one in this thread or no one ever has attempted to address those verses in this forum. I would disagree with you as would Matt, MFBlume, and perhaps Prax if you are sayng no one on this forum ever...

I will agree with you again that John's baptism for the remission of sins is a BAPTISM ....remission happened at the BAPTISM by faith. Remission of sins was accounted for before the cross with a clear looking forward to of Him that was to come. And once Jesus came they needed to believe on Him and be rebaptized and recieve the Holy Spirit, just like the Ephesus believers in Acts 19. To me this is intertestamental exceptions to the rule, because without the shedding of blood the new testament/covenant is not in effect.

The people who responded to John's preaching received "the remission of sins" before the cross. And those are Mark's and Luke's words, not mine. The whole purpose of John's ministry was "To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins..." Those were the words that Luke attributes to the Holy Spirit speaking through the priest Zacharius, John's father.

I'm not arguing against you here, Pel. My concern was with your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21.

Q: When did the people receive this "knowledge of salvation?"
A: When they heard John's preaching - before the cross.

Q:When did the people receive "remission of sins?"
A: When they came to John, confessed their sins and were baptized by John and his disciples and later by the disciples of Jesus Christ Himself (John 4:1-2) before the cross.

Q: Why is this important?
A: Because by looking at baptism both before and after the events at Calvary we can compare and contrast the different time periods and see what was "different" about after the cross.

Thank you for simple explanation of your reasoning which I truly don't have much of a problem with considering the lengthy, exhaustive discussion we had on another thread with Matt, Blume, and Prax. As you can see I agree with much of what you say EXCEPT your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21.

What do you think of this verse? Does it fit in with the rest of your reasoning?

Luke 11:12-13 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

What does it mean "...and the law prophesied UNTIL John"

Essentially, the "only" thing that was "different" was that Jesus had completed the promised work for our salvation. AND NOTE: I put the word "only" in the scary "QUOTE" marks to emphasize the fact that this event was a pretty big deal in my opinion. However, the "only" difference remains one of timing. [/CENTER]

I never meant to imply this event wasn't a BIG deal for you!