Be Ye Perfect

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb. 6:4-6

The difference is seen between verse 4 and 5. In my understanding verse 4 would be reality for every Christian.

Verse 5 however is something that very few believers have experience in. If THESE fall away it looks like YAH has nothing else he can draw them with. They already had the GOOD word.

They already knew the POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME that is the gifts of the Holy Ghost. If THAT does not hold them to Christ NOTHING WILL. The writer seems to say they will not repent.

I believe there are 4 interpretations of this passage.

1. A Christian can lose their salvation
2. warning against mere profession of faith
3. hypothetically if a Christian could lose his salvation, there is no provision for repentance.
4. a warning is given of the dangers of a Christian moving from a position of true faith and life to the extent of becoming disqualified for further service.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Believer

I believe there are 4 interpretations of this passage.

1. A Christian can lose their salvation
2. warning against mere profession of faith
3. hypothetically if a Christian could lose his salvation, there is no provision for repentance.
4. a warning is given of the dangers of a Christian moving from a position of true faith and life to the extent of becoming disqualified for further service.

Maybe so. I think what I posted is the truth tho.

[WholeTruth24]

Micheal,

My Bishop explained Matt. 5:48, as such-

Being perfect as God is perfect, refers to living all you know, holy and acceptable to God.

You see God is perfect in everything because He knows everything and is thus perfect in all He knows

For us to be perfect even as God in Heaven is perfect we have to be perfect in all we know, (referring to striving and living a life for God, not natural acts like walking and jumping.)

If you know such and such is wrong then don’t do it. The Bible says “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17) So if you do everything you know that is right and expedient and don’t do anything you know that is wrong or evil then you can live a life sinless, without sin. And as more is revealed to one, they can apply it to their life and live a more deeper, richer life with God, all the while avoiding do the things they know to be wrong, sins.

Thus we are perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by WholeTruth24

Micheal,

My Bishop explained Matt. 5:48, as such-

Being perfect as God is perfect, refers to living all you know, holy and acceptable to God.

You see God is perfect in everything because He knows everything and is thus perfect in all He knows

For us to be perfect even as God in Heaven is perfect we have to be perfect in all we know, (referring to striving and living a life for God, not natural acts like walking and jumping.)

If you know such and such is wrong then don’t do it. The Bible says “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17) So if you do everything you know that is right and expedient and don’t do anything you know that is wrong or evil then you can live a life sinless, without sin. And as more is revealed to one, they can apply it to their life and live a more deeper, richer life with God, all the while avoiding do the things they know to be wrong, sins.

Thus we are perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect.

That is the truth in a nutshell. People want to make this topic about once saved always saved. That is not the topic. The topic I have started here on this forum is on Biblical perfection.

The fact is that we are commanded to be perfect by the Messiah. Everywhere we look in scripture we find such teaching. Here is an example.

23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24: Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 1 Thess. 5:23-24

Paul said God is faithful to do this. False doctrine steals mens faith that it is so.

Many who think they are saved will be lost. Why? Instead of doing the will of the Father they keep on sinning.

[Adino]

Concerning the discussion on Hebrews 6:4-6...

The person who falls away CANNOT find repentance, but this does not mean he can NEVER AGAIN find repentance. Sounds like double-talk but it is not.

Let me explain....

In Hebrews chapter 1 the author first lifts up Christ and underscores Christ's eminence by listing prophecies which speak of him.

In chapter 2 the author continues with a word of caution that they should all "give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip." He then begins to tie "Jesus" into the prophecies of Christ.

In chapter 3 the author identifies "Christ Jesus" as the "Apostle and High Priest of our profession [of faith]" and that his readers are of the house of Christ if they "hold fast the confidence." They are to "take heed... lest there be in any.... an evil heart of unbelief." He continues by voicing "we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" and that it is the unbeliever who does not enter into God's rest.

Chapter 4 continues with this theme again cautioning not to enter into "unbelief."

Chapter 5 voices how Christ became the "author of eternal salvation" and then presents a turn of focus in which the author begins to reprimand his readers as being immature babes "unskilful in the word of righteousness."

It is in this context we see the verses of chapter 6 in question.

In chapter 6 foundational principles are mentioned beginning with "repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God."

We then read, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Left in textual context, these passages speak directly of the individual who has fallen away into unbelief. The phrase "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" refers to an individual who has come to the conclusion in his heart that Christ deserved the open shame of crucifixion. They speak of the individual who has done what the author has cautioned against in previous chapters.... they have not "held fast their confidence" and have "slipped" into "unbelief."

This problem is restated in Hebrews 10:26-29, "For if we sin wilfully [i.e., if we wilfully enter again into unbelief] after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins [it's either Christ's sacrifice or nothing... there is no other], ..... how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" This again refers to entering into unbelief and brings the author's council in 10:35, "Cast not away therefore your confidence." He continues in 10:38, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back [i.e., if any man draw back FROM FAITH], my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Bottom line, the issue concerns an individual falling into unbelief.

When it is stated in chapter 6 that "It is impossible ..... if they shall fall away [into unbelief], to renew them again unto repentance," it does mean that the person who has lost his faith CANNOT find repentance. BUT, why is this the case? A proper understanding of repentance is in order.

Biblical repentance involves two very important inseparable concepts. Hebrew repentance did involve a turning away from sin, but it should be stressed that it was understood by the Jews that the man turning FROM sin was "returning TO God." Biblical repentance implied an imperative turning back to God in FAITH.

In repenting, man ceased from his dead works and returned to God in faith. This was the foundational doctrine of the NT, i.e., the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith toward God. This message of repentance and faith was consistently taught by Paul. Paul kept back nothing profitable "testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:20-21; also Hebrews 6:1).

With this in mind Hebrews 6:4-6 can be easily understood. The person who falls away into unbelief, i.e., the person who no longer has faith CANNOT be brought to repentance. Why? Because faith is the imperative second half of repentance. Repentance DEMANDS faith. It is impossible to renew the unbeliever to repentance because repentance cannot exist without faith. Repentance cannot fully take place without the heart returning to God in faith.

Does this mean the individual who falls from faith can NEVER AGAIN come to repentance? NO. If the individual is renewed to faith in Christ then a return to God (a repentance) has taken place.

I believe a strong case can be made to say that the sin of unbelief is the sin unto death spoken of in Scripture.

Michael, I'm waiting for your exegesis on Hebrews 9:9 and 10:1-2

[Adino]

WholeTruth asked,

1. Are you asserting Christ died for our past, present, and future sins, repented and unrepented?

Christ died for all sins, past, present and future. The bible speaks of only one sin unto death and I believe there is evidence to say this is the sin of unbelief. He that believeth not shall be damned (Mark 16:16). And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin..... because they believe not on me (John 16:8-9).

Remember that biblical repentance involves two very important concepts which cannot be separated, a "turning FROM sin" and a "returning TO God." So, if repentance is ultimately the sinner returning to faith in God, how can it be said the person, once saved, who never loses his faith in Christ needs to repent or return to Christ? Yes, he may have to recognize an inadequacy in his Christian walk and attempt to turn from that sort of behavior, but as long as he rests in Christ he has not lost his status before God.

Those who have faith in God through Christ, retain their status as believers and though they may stumble in behavior they have not lost out with God because they have not come out from under the imputed righteousness God gives to all who believe. If one who is a believer "sins" then he only need cease from the dead work and continue in faith thanking God for the effectiveness of the Cross. All sin has been dealt with on the cross. All sin, that is, but the sin of unbelief in Christ's work on the Cross.

2. Once saved always saved?

Once saved always saved unless one falls away into unbelief and crucifies afresh the Son of God (Hebrews 6:4-6).

3. You honestly believe A & S are saved? Will be in Heaven?

Yes, unless they fell away into unbelief, which is possible. If saved, they will be in heaven. Yes, if they are saved, God was definitely gracious, as he is to us all.

4. Are you asserting that after one obey Acts 2:38 we are free to do whatever we want and still make it into the Kingdom, into Heaven, still have salvation? We don’t have to strive, to continue steadfastly in the Apostles‘ Doctrine? We can lie, steal, cheat, kill, indulge in the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, and every other filthy sin the Devil is going to tempt us with?

I probably don't hold your understanding of what it means to "obey Acts 2:38" but we certainly must strive to keep the faith. We who are justified by faith, are perpetually justified by that same faith and if we should stumble while possessing faith we remain under the imputed righteousness of God. This is not to say we should not strive to live righteously. We are created in Christ unto good works and should yield ourselves unto God because it is our reasonable service (Ephesians 2:10; Romans 6:13; 12:1).

God bless

[SDG]

Adino, you do believe, how ever one ,can fall away into unbelief?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Adino, you do believe, how everyone ,can fall away into unbelief?

I do lean toward that position. There was a time I almost did myself. I think there are issues with the "well if they leave the faith, they were never really among us" approach. I am not a Calvinist, so while I agree that faith is a gift from God I believe the inclination of man's heart certainly comes into play. I think the discussion on falling away, entering into unbelief and not holding our confidence given by the author of Hebrews is strong support for this position.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Adino

I do lean toward that position. There was a time I almost did myself. I think there are issues with the "well if they leave the faith, they were never really among us" approach. I am not a Calvinist, so while I agree that faith is a gift from God I believe the inclination of man's heart certainly comes into play. I think the discussion on falling away, entering into unbelief and not holding our confidence given by the author of Hebrews is strong support for this position.

We agree.

Interesting topic.