Salvation for the deaf and mute?: Say it ain't so.

[Sister Alvear]

I asked Brother Alvear today at lunch what he thought...He thinks someone like tht is in the hands of a just God...period and it is not up to us to judge...
Guess you can tell from my posts who I have been around...

[bkstokes]

Essentially I think that the argument that I am about to write could be used to point that by at least practice all of us to some degree have calvinistic leanings -- that being said.

I was thinking today not about the words of the three steppers, but their actions. Everyone knows the saying that "actions speak louder than words." In particular I was thinking about how three steppers believing that them and only them would be saved (resulting in probably less than .01 of 1% of the present population saved) by their actions (most of them) really don't show to believe this.

I mean if only they are going to be saved (and us one steppers who have blindly fallen into it), how can they justify the lavious lifestyles that they do? How can they consume so much and give so little to missions? How can they drive cadillacs and wear italian suits and really believe this? It does not make sense. I think that many 3 steppers do not really believe that all must do the 3 steps. I think because of the fear of rejection of others they state they do. However, deep down inside they fall back on some type of "light doctrine" at least.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Essentially I think that the argument that I am about to write could be used to point that by at least practice all of us to some degree have calvinistic leanings -- that being said.

I was thinking today not about the words of the three steppers, but their actions. Everyone knows the saying that "actions speak louder than words." In particular I was thinking about how three steppers believing that them and only them would be saved (resulting in probably less than .01 of 1% of the present population saved) by their actions (most of them) really don't show to believe this.

I mean if only they are going to be saved (and us one steppers who have blindly fallen into it), how can they justify the lavious lifestyles that they do? How can they consume so much and give so little to missions? How can they drive cadillacs and wear italian suits and really believe this? It does not make sense. I think that many 3 steppers do not really believe that all must do the 3 steps. I think because of the fear of rejection of others they state they do. However, deep down inside they fall back on some type of "light doctrine" at least.

(sigh)

Amazing. You've managed, in one fell swoop, to make some sweeping generalizations about 3-steppers. So you've informed us that "they" live lascivious lifestyles, consume so much, give little to missions, drive cadillacs, wear italian suits, etc. (Judging from your post, one might assume that 1-steppers don't do any of the above.)

As a so-called "3-stepper" myself, I'm not sure if I should consider your words above to be insulting, or preposterous, or simply laughable....

...Then again, maybe its all of the above.

Simply amazing.

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Essentially I think that the argument that I am about to write could be used to point that by at least practice all of us to some degree have calvinistic leanings -- that being said.

I was thinking today not about the words of the three steppers, but their actions. Everyone knows the saying that "actions speak louder than words." In particular I was thinking about how three steppers believing that them and only them would be saved (resulting in probably less than .01 of 1% of the present population saved) by their actions (most of them) really don't show to believe this.

I mean if only they are going to be saved (and us one steppers who have blindly fallen into it), how can they justify the lavious lifestyles that they do? How can they consume so much and give so little to missions? How can they drive cadillacs and wear italian suits and really believe this? It does not make sense. I think that many 3 steppers do not really believe that all must do the 3 steps. I think because of the fear of rejection of others they state they do. However, deep down inside they fall back on some type of "light doctrine" at least.

I think the one thing here is that it doesn't make sense. Your assumptions about 'three-steppers' and all. You seem to be speaking for all 'one-steppers' about all 'three-steppers'.

Self righteousness is found in all 'steps' it seems

Maybe you do not mean it as arrogant as you or maybe I am just overly sensitive about steps today I don't know but this is very tiring.
If we can not all get along then those that want to be seperatists and judge what and why of everyone and thing can take their toys and go home.
Are we going to make it with these attitudes about each other? I think not.

Personally I think three-steppers may not all believe it exactly and I am sure one-steppers who follow through certainly don't believe their way exactly.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

My dear brother,

When we are weak, He is strong. Throughout the New Testament no one is ever condemned for not having the ability to speak. If God allowed an individual to not be able to speak, He would not condemn that person for something that he does not have. Just like we all would agree if a little baby dies before it believes and it is baptized that it will not go to hell. If one does think that way then he or she is edging closer and closer to the Catholic doctrine of imparted portions of grace that come only through the sacrements of the church. We are called to surrender to him as LORD and Christ.

Now I believe that God could fill a mute person with the Holy Ghost and they will speak in tongues. God could also heal that person, and then we would avoid this whole conversation.

Who condemned someone who could not hear or speak? In this thread I mean.

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

(sigh)

Amazing. You've managed, in one fell swoop, to make some sweeping generalizations about 3-steppers. So you've informed us that "they" live lascivious lifestyles, consume so much, give little to missions, drive cadillacs, wear italian suits, etc. (Judging from your post, one might assume that 1-steppers don't do any of the above.)

As a so-called "3-stepper" myself, I'm not sure if I should consider your words above to be to be insulting, or preposterous, or simply laughable....

...Then again, maybe its all of the above.

Simply amazing.

What is the saying about it is "best to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"? that is what came to my mind when I saw that post.
I was shocked to such a thing. I would equally be shocked to see it the other way around also.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

What is the saying about it is "best to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"? that is what came to my mind when I saw that post.
I was shocked to such a thing. I would equally be shocked to see it the other way around also.

I tell ya...

Sometimes I look at some of the stuff people post on these forums, and I just think to myself: its amazing how people think sometimes.

Simply amazing.

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I tell ya...

Sometimes I look at some of the stuff people post on these forums, and I just think to myself: its amazing how people think sometimes.

Simply amazing.

To steal a line from some chap online....


Simply amazing


=) I would have to agree with you.

[bkstokes]

My purpose in my statements was not provoke division or strife. Nor do I think that my statements represent anyone else beside me. I was simply commenting on how the actions of the 3 steppers that I know personally for many years speak different from what they say.

Without calling anyone persopnally on the floor (I will put this out there because I am many years removed from the UPC and not many people know me know), I was an active minister in one of the largest and most influencial UPC churches that there was and it still is. My pastor at the time strongly preached 3 step doctrine ( and still does) yet he and his family lived lifestyles that few in our blessed country could afford to live. Neverhtheless, he was always one of the first to preach missions and missions giving at the big conferences. THE MAIN POINT IS THAT THE ACTIONS OF PEOPLE SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. IF ONLY 3 STEPPERS ARE SAVED HOW CAN SOMEONE JUSTIFY THIS?

If you will also notice, I pointed out that my argument taken to its end is a reflection on all of our lack of effort.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

My purpose in my statements was not provoke division or strife. Nor do I think that my statements represent anyone else beside me. I was simply commenting on how the actions of the 3 steppers that I know personally for many years speak different from what they say.

Without calling anyone persopnally on the floor (I will put this out there because I am many years removed from the UPC and not many people know me know), I was an active minister in one of the largest and most influencial UPC churches that there was and it still is. My pastor at the time strongly preached 3 step doctrine ( and still does) yet he and his family lived lifestyles that few in our blessed country could afford to live. Neverhtheless, he was always one of the first to preach missions and missions giving at the big conferences. THE MAIN POINT IS THAT THE ACTIONS OF PEOPLE SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. IF ONLY 3 STEPPERS ARE SAVED HOW CAN SOMEONE JUSTIFY THIS?

If you will also notice, I pointed out that my argument taken to its end is a reflection on all of our lack of effort.

And he preached condemnation of the deaf/mute? Or that anyone that didn't SPEAK in tongues after receving the Holy Ghost, and if the baptizer was mute they were lost? And he preached, but didn't give to missions, and lived a lavish lifestyle? How many years ago was this?