The Ministry of Ham

[MissBrattified]

One very real problem I see is one of perception...some folks assume that those who still practice respect and discretion toward leadership (which they disdain) must never have experienced real hurt, or if they did, they ran from it rather than handling it courageously.

That just goes to show your lack of understanding. The hurt is there, but it was handled differently, not badly or inappropriately.

I see no reason to drag another person through mud simply because they deserve it. God doesn't give me what I deserve, so how would I ever possess the right to do that to someone else?

It reminds me of the story in Matthew 18:21-35.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

One very real problem I see is one of perception...some folks assume that those who still practice respect and discretion toward leadership (which they disdain) must never have experienced real hurt, or if they did, they ran from it rather than handling it courageously.

That just goes to show your lack of understanding. The hurt is there, but it was handled differently, not badly or inappropriately.

I see no reason to drag another person through mud simply because they deserve it. God doesn't give me what I deserve, so how would I ever possess the right to do that to someone else?

It reminds me of the story in Matthew 18:21-35.

The problem with your thought. Is I have never distained leadership or authority. My father was in the ministry and tought us to respect.

However he did not teach us to be drones that look the other way.

Many of the men who have spiritual issues look for sympathy from the saints.

Understand that they look and hope to get a free pass.

These same men tell us all to have accountabilty in how we vote.

That holding men in office to accountability is very important for us as Christians.

The problem is there generally is little to know way to vote a minister out of their office.

Repect and blind following are 2 very different things....

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I'm not in any political position to stand up to anyone who matters. If you have connections, then more power to you. But I do live by what I believe and preach (I don't actually preach...you understand), and I speak it when its appropriate.

I really don't appreciate the implication that I wouldn't or don't or haven't ever experienced standing up for what I believe. It's unnecessary, really, pointing to a certain arrogance on your part. Quite frankly, I'm offended. I wouldn't even consider giving you a laundry list of what could certainly be called paltry experiences with such matters, especially compared to some here. Not only is it none of your business, but quite frankly I think you are making yourself look bad with your pointlessly pointed question, so I have no need to defend myself with offering specifics.

That would be like telling me that I have no right to speak my mind about political issues unless I've "stood up" to a high-ranking politician. No, I "stand up" by voting in local and national elections, and speaking what I believe at any opportunity.

I "stand up" for good church government by attending and supporting a church whose pastor is good and kind and fair and a true servant. I encourage others to attend, or attend similar churches with similar leadership. I (and my husband) teach our children that leadership is about serving God and others, and in that way I stand up for godly leadership.

Once, a long time back, my husband stood up for me, when I was too intimidated by an overbearing and abusive authority to stand up for myself, and he did so with grace and dignity and respect (for the man who had caused the offense), and still managed to whisk me away to a better place without ever compromising his own integrity, and I learned a valuable lesson--that it's okay to "stand up", and that you can and should stand up without lowering yourself to another, entirely different, level. The level that I've seen some on these forums stoop to in order to point out all the disgraces they see everywhere they look, because they look with a critical eye. They ought to instead, be looking with an eye that is tinted, not blinded, with brotherly love.

Very nicely stated. Thanks for these good words.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

The past few days I have been thinking about some of the things I read, and the consistent theme of criticism that seems to pervade the communication of some.

I will be the first to agree that there are problems in the Apostolic movement, both in the pulpit and in the pew. This is true of any group, because of a little thing called humanity.

But I am repulsed by the attitude that seems to be driven to expose and highlight every flaw and vulnerability and weakness both in the Church and in the ministry. I believe this is an insidious spirit that often gets a grip on people when they have been wounded or treated unjustly.

Let us look at a few Scriptural examples of this spirit at work...



Gen 9:20 ¶ And Noah began [to be] an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:


Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.


Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.


Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid [it] upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces [were] backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.


Gen 9:24 ¶ And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.


Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.


Gen 9:26 And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.


Gen 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Ham found his father naked and drunken. What was his response?

His shirt tail didn't hit his backside twice before he had gone and told his brethren.

His brothers, by contrast, walked in with a blamket with their backs to him, and covered him.

What was the result? They were blessed, and Ham's seed was cursed.

I have noticed one thing about those who constantly criticize and take upon themselves the role of "whistle-blower" to reveal every flaw they can find in their leadership: their children seem to pay the biggest price.

They grow up having been weaned on disrespect and distrust for the gift God gave the Church, and they live enslaved by their attitude and sin, because they don't trust the means God gave for sending them the message of deliverance.

How about other professional critics? How did they fare?

Sanballat was another...


Neh 2:17 ¶ Then said I unto them, Ye see the distress that we [are] in, how Jerusalem [lieth] waste, and the gates thereof are burned with fire: come, and let us build up the wall of Jerusalem, that we be no more a reproach.


Neh 2:18 Then I told them of the hand of my God which was good upon me; as also the king's words that he had spoken unto me. And they said, Let us rise up and build. So they strengthened their hands for [this] good [work].


Neh 2:19 But when Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, and Geshem the Arabian, heard [it], they laughed us to scorn, and despised us, and said, What [is] this thing that ye do? will ye rebel against the king?


Neh 2:20 Then answered I them, and said unto them, The God of heaven, he will prosper us; therefore we his servants will arise and build: but ye have no portion, nor right, nor memorial, in Jerusalem.

Nehemiah and his men were builders.

Sanballat and his crew were scorners and critics.

Who got the good reviews in the Word? You be the judge.

David has his detractors also.


2Sa 16:5 ¶ And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name [was] Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth, and cursed still as he came.


2Sa 16:6 And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men [were] on his right hand and on his left.


2Sa 16:7 And thus said Shimei when he cursed, Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial:


2Sa 16:8 The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou [art taken] in thy mischief, because thou [art] a bloody man.


2Sa 16:9 ¶ Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head.


2Sa 16:10 And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so?


2Sa 16:11 And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now [may this] Benjamite [do it]? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him.


2Sa 16:12 It may be that the LORD will look on mine affliction, and that the LORD will requite me good for his cursing this day.

Fast forward a few years and you will find that Shimei could not even keep himself inside the boundaries of Jerusalem when Solomon gave him mercy. He was slain.

David? His memory is still honored.

There are others...

Judas was a critic.


Mat 26:6 ¶ Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,


Mat 26:7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat [at meat].


Mat 26:8 But when his disciples saw [it], they had indignation, saying, To what purpose [is] this waste?


Mat 26:9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.


Mat 26:10 When Jesus understood [it], he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.


Mat 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.


Mat 26:12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did [it] for my burial.


Mat 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Judas thought the money could have been used for a better cause. Sort of reminds me of some that are constantly fussing about the money spent on sanctuaries of worship--they aren't the first ones to think somebody else's expression of worship was too extravagant.

The career of Judas is well known.

I could go on, but this is probably enough to make my point.

The ministries of Ham, Sanballat, Shimei, and Judas are still alive and well.

And they still bear the same fruit.

This must be a 4 hr. sermon,can you tell me in a few words what Hams ministery is ?

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

The past few days I have been thinking about some of the things I read, and the consistent theme of criticism that seems to pervade the communication of some.

I will be the first to agree that there are problems in the Apostolic movement, both in the pulpit and in the pew. This is true of any group, because of a little thing called humanity.

But I am repulsed by the attitude that seems to be driven to expose and highlight every flaw and vulnerability and weakness both in the Church and in the ministry. I believe this is an insidious spirit that often gets a grip on people when they have been wounded or treated unjustly.

Let us look at a few Scriptural examples of this spirit at work...



Gen 9:20 ¶ And Noah began [to be] an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:


Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.


Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.


Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid [it] upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces [were] backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.


Gen 9:24 ¶ And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.


Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.


Gen 9:26 And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.


Gen 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Ham found his father naked and drunken. What was his response?

His shirt tail didn't hit his backside twice before he had gone and told his brethren.

His brothers, by contrast, walked in with a blamket with their backs to him, and covered him.

What was the result? They were blessed, and Ham's seed was cursed.

I have noticed one thing about those who constantly criticize and take upon themselves the role of "whistle-blower" to reveal every flaw they can find in their leadership: their children seem to pay the biggest price.

They grow up having been weaned on disrespect and distrust for the gift God gave the Church, and they live enslaved by their attitude and sin, because they don't trust the means God gave for sending them the message of deliverance.

How about other professional critics? How did they fare?

Sanballat was another...


Neh 2:17 ¶ Then said I unto them, Ye see the distress that we [are] in, how Jerusalem [lieth] waste, and the gates thereof are burned with fire: come, and let us build up the wall of Jerusalem, that we be no more a reproach.


Neh 2:18 Then I told them of the hand of my God which was good upon me; as also the king's words that he had spoken unto me. And they said, Let us rise up and build. So they strengthened their hands for [this] good [work].


Neh 2:19 But when Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, and Geshem the Arabian, heard [it], they laughed us to scorn, and despised us, and said, What [is] this thing that ye do? will ye rebel against the king?


Neh 2:20 Then answered I them, and said unto them, The God of heaven, he will prosper us; therefore we his servants will arise and build: but ye have no portion, nor right, nor memorial, in Jerusalem.

Nehemiah and his men were builders.

Sanballat and his crew were scorners and critics.

Who got the good reviews in the Word? You be the judge.

David has his detractors also.


2Sa 16:5 ¶ And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name [was] Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth, and cursed still as he came.


2Sa 16:6 And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men [were] on his right hand and on his left.


2Sa 16:7 And thus said Shimei when he cursed, Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial:


2Sa 16:8 The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou [art taken] in thy mischief, because thou [art] a bloody man.


2Sa 16:9 ¶ Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head.


2Sa 16:10 And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so?


2Sa 16:11 And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now [may this] Benjamite [do it]? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him.


2Sa 16:12 It may be that the LORD will look on mine affliction, and that the LORD will requite me good for his cursing this day.

Fast forward a few years and you will find that Shimei could not even keep himself inside the boundaries of Jerusalem when Solomon gave him mercy. He was slain.

David? His memory is still honored.

There are others...

Judas was a critic.


Mat 26:6 ¶ Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,


Mat 26:7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat [at meat].


Mat 26:8 But when his disciples saw [it], they had indignation, saying, To what purpose [is] this waste?


Mat 26:9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.


Mat 26:10 When Jesus understood [it], he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.


Mat 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.


Mat 26:12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did [it] for my burial.


Mat 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Judas thought the money could have been used for a better cause. Sort of reminds me of some that are constantly fussing about the money spent on sanctuaries of worship--they aren't the first ones to think somebody else's expression of worship was too extravagant.

The career of Judas is well known.

I could go on, but this is probably enough to make my point.

The ministries of Ham, Sanballat, Shimei, and Judas are still alive and well.

And they still bear the same fruit.

Sorry,I went back and read the beginning again.I understand now. You used the word humanity, I think it's more like carnality which sounld not be in the church.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Joelel

This must be a 4 hr. sermon,can you tell me in a few words what Hams ministery is ?

?????

Did you ever take a speech class? A couple of written-out pages amounts to about 5 minutes....LOL!!!!

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

?????

Did you ever take a speech class? A couple of written-out pages amounts to about 5 minutes....LOL!!!!

I'm glad your so nice,reminds me of some churches I use to attend,don't go there any more and never will.Don't see LOL here.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Joelel

I'm glad your so nice,reminds me of some churches I use to attend,don't go there any more and never will.Don't see LOL here.

Not sure what's so serious about it...I'm just correcting your misconception that the long post would be equal to a long sermon. I am nice, by the way. You, on the other hand, don't seem quite so easy going.

I was laughing to myself (e.g., LOL) because I remember the first time I ever got up to say something to a class thinking I had a lot, and I was done in only 2 minutes...then had to scramble to figure out what to do for the rest of class. And I had 2 pages of type-written notes in my hand! They weren't even written out...just keywords and reminders and such.

That's reversed now, though...

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Not sure what's so serious about it...I'm just correcting your misconception that the long post would be equal to a long sermon. I am nice, by the way. You, on the other hand, don't seem quite so easy going.

I was laughing to myself (e.g., LOL) because I remember the first time I ever got up to say something to a class thinking I had a lot, and I was done in only 2 minutes...then had to scramble to figure out what to do for the rest of class. And I had 2 pages of type-written notes in my hand! They weren't even written out...just keywords and reminders and such.

That's reversed now, though...

The thing is,he posted all this scripture from the old testement and about peoples humanity that are not filled with the Holy Ghost and refering it to the ministery and people in the church today.The church is suppose to be spirtual filled with the Spirit not in the flesh or carnal. So all them scripture means nothing.Just thought all that scripture would take some explaining and then you come along and ask if I ever took a speach class. Maybe you would like to explain how humanity can be in Spirit filled people.Paul said you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit dwell in you.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Not sure what's so serious about it...I'm just correcting your misconception that the long post would be equal to a long sermon. I am nice, by the way. You, on the other hand, don't seem quite so easy going.

I was laughing to myself (e.g., LOL) because I remember the first time I ever got up to say something to a class thinking I had a lot, and I was done in only 2 minutes...then had to scramble to figure out what to do for the rest of class. And I had 2 pages of type-written notes in my hand! They weren't even written out...just keywords and reminders and such.

That's reversed now, though...

ROFL! Me, too...my first couple of sermons were about 4 minutes...now I can't get them under 45! Last time, my wife was almost falling asleep