The end is at hand!!!!!!!!!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I know there's no way for me to prove it to you, but I've never intentionally rebelled against anything, just for the sake of being different....cross my heart, hope to die. I understand how I give the impression, though.

Haha! No problem. Thanks for the clarification.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Ok, I'm with you, here. I CO seems pretty clear. Do the "Full" folks believe that resurrections took place in 70AD or do the allegorize I CO 15?

The resurrection did take place in 70 AD as foretold in Daniel 12. The question is the nature of the resurrection. The Bible states that a man's body will return to the dust from which it is made. It also says that the spirit in the man will return to God from which it came. The "'Full' folks" (to borrow your wording...) believe the resurrection is spirit and not body, and as such, the resurrection began happening after the fulfillments of 70 AD.

Concerning these differences, what needs remembered is that partial preterism focuses on the REANIMATION of flesh, while fulfilled eschatology (full preterism) focuses on the TRANSFORMATION from the flesh. This is probably the most distinguishing difference between "full" and all other futurist positions including that of partial preterism.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not have it totally figured out, for sure. But I do have a general idea, I believe.

It is unclear because of the reasons I gave, in my opinion.

I came across quote an explanation of why I think people fight and are so strong about their ideas in prophecy. I saw more people fight over prophecy than anything else. I think I know why.

Someone explained that many believers try to find their identities in something other than Christ, the proper way, and seek to impress PEOPLE rather than God. When we find our identities in Christ, we seek to impress GOD and not people. But anything else messes us up.

For example, prophecy seems to be an issue that has a reputation of being more mystical and mystifying and spiritual than anything else. But I think the carnal mind thinks it is like that. And since VISIONS and PROPHECIES seems so impossible to understand and how usually people think one has to be a spiritual guru or giant of mystical things to be able to understand it, people want to be that in order to impress others. So, they strive to get their view across to others so as to impress these others with what the presenters are convinced impresses people. In reality, they do not want to show truth so the people are impressed with God, but are impressed with the presenters.

By getting people impressed, the presenter feels better about themselves and their insecurity is removed. But when the other person disagree with the doctrine, that person has just removed the presenters' means of identity and security. So the presenter takes it personally as though the other is saying they have no identity and feel insecure again. So a fight ensues. lol



I can see very well where you are coming from and I like your refusal to be someone who knows it all about prophecy. However, I do not think I know it all about prophecy either. And I only recommend you to reconsider this and think that God DOES want us to know about these things, since He took so much time in inspiring his writers to put it in the bible. And there is a good understanding to be had if we can keep away from all the claptrap you quite adequately described, which was inspired by the explanation I gave about people wanting to vaunt themselves up.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, and think no one can truly know Revelation, because of a turn-off we've both seen in those who want to IMPRESS OTHERS.

Years ago, I read a great book titled, "Love, Acceptance, & Forgiveness", by Jerry Cook. GREAT book!!!

In it, he tells the story of his frustration with having had his best prophecy ideals shattered with time and an event that took place in the church he pastored.

Once day he read Revelation 1:3 that says there will be great blessing when Revelation is read to the church. So he decided to simply sit down and read the book to the church rather than preach. He didn't know how long it would take and was embarrassed to not preach but he really felt like he should.

It took him six Sunday nights to finish. He never paused, never explained anything, he just read it word for word. On the 6th Sunday night, when he finished and said, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all, Amen", the church erupted in a standing ovation and a roar that last for well over 30 minutes!! He said his church wasn't a particularly emotional church so this was something that had never taken place, nor anything close.

Revelation both frustrates me and blesses me. I'm frustrated when I try to figure it out, and I'm blessed when I just read it.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

They believe souls slept until AD70, and at that time an invisible resurrection occurred, and ever since then an invisible and non-physical resurrection occurs every time a believer dies. It happened all at once in AD70 since everyone slept in graves until then. But since then, they believe each believer rises on an individual basis when he/she dies. And the body is left forever in the ground to never rise again.

They do not allegorize 1 Cor 15, but they interpret it differently to fit with a resurrection at AD70 but yet invisible, because they have to do that if they say this was AD70. Since no one physically arose then, for it would have been plainly evident, then they realize 1 Cor 15 MUST TEACH an invisible resurrection.

In my opinion, and this is just me, I think they are fitting what 1 Cor 15 into other passages that i believe they misinterpreted, as though Jesus said EVERYTHING ever prophesied had to occur by the time of AD70. Since Jesus used second person personal pronouns to the people who heard Him teach Matt 24, and they (as well as myself) feels that means those actual people would see the events listed there, everytime a first or second person personal pronoun is mentioned it has to include ONLY those people who wrote as well as the others alive then. Therefore, they take 1 Thess 4:14-18 as ONLY involving the people alive at that time. I think that rule of person pronouns does not work all the time, though. 2 Cor 5 uses them and fp's believe it includes us today!

Anyway, my assessment.

Hmm.....ok. So then what are we living now, according to them? Where was or is the millennium? When was/is the tribulation?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

The resurrection did take place in 70 AD as foretold in Daniel 12. The question is the nature of the resurrection. The Bible states that a man's body will return to the dust from which it is made. It also says that the spirit in the man will return to God from which it came. The "'Full' folks" (to borrow your wording...) believe the resurrection is spirit and not body, and as such, the resurrection began happening after the fulfillments of 70 AD.

Concerning these differences, what needs remembered is that partial preterism focuses on the REANIMATION of flesh, while fulfilled eschatology (full preterism) focuses on the TRANSFORMATION from the flesh. This is probably the most distinguishing difference between "full" and all other futurist positions including that of partial preterism.

Uh oh. Here we go. Duck & cover!

Ok, so let's say you're wrong. Any chance of that? What would that do to your theology and our present system of living? It seems to me as though your theory puts us in a completely different mindset of living, church, mission of the church, purpose of life, etc., true?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Concerning these differences, what needs remembered is that partial preterism focuses on the REANIMATION of flesh, while fulfilled eschatology (full preterism) focuses on the TRANSFORMATION from the flesh. This is probably the most distinguishing difference between "full" and all other futurist positions including that of partial preterism.

Ooops I saw a detail I missed. You said FROM the flesh.

I edited my original words, if anyone read them in this post before.

However, I not only believe in reanimation of the flesh, but also transformation OF the flesh. The flesh only reanimates if it has died. If it is still alive when the resurrection occurs, it does not reanimate. It only transforms. But whether some will reanimate because they died, all will be transformed by seeing their mortal flesh transformed into immortal flesh.

[jfrog]

mfblume, I am curious... does the bible give any prophecies surrounding the future coming of Jesus?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Years ago, I read a great book titled, "Love, Acceptance, & Forgiveness", by Jerry Cook. GREAT book!!!

In it, he tells the story of his frustration with having had his best prophecy ideals shattered with time and an event that took place in the church he pastored.

Once day he read Revelation 1:3 that says there will be great blessing when Revelation is read to the church. So he decided to simply sit down and read the book to the church rather than preach. He didn't know how long it would take and was embarrassed to not preach but he really felt like he should.

It took him six Sunday nights to finish. He never paused, never explained anything, he just read it word for word. On the 6th Sunday night, when he finished and said, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all, Amen", the church erupted in a standing ovation and a roar that last for well over 30 minutes!! He said his church wasn't a particularly emotional church so this was something that had never taken place, nor anything close.

Revelation both frustrates me and blesses me. I'm frustrated when I try to figure it out, and I'm blessed when I just read it.

I've heard that interpretation of what it is to be blessed when one reads it, but I do not think that is what it means. I think it means we have to have been blessed by God to be able to understand it, since it does take the Spirit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

mfblume, I am curious... does the bible give any prophecies surrounding the future coming of Jesus?

I believe only so in the sense that He is coming, and we shall physically be transformed to have immortal bodies. But Revelation 20, which millennium I believe is speaking 98% of the entire church age, does mention a coming time of trouble when all nations shall rise against the church wholesale.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe only so in the sense that He is coming, and we shall physically be transformed to have immortal bodies. But Revelation 20, which millennium I believe is speaking of the entire church age, does mention a coming time of trouble when all nations shall rise against the church wholesale.

Interesting. Is that all?