Initial evidence

[Amanah]

I believe in conditional Immortality.

I believe Salvation is a process.

Initial salvation (justification): When we first believe in Jesus Christ and obey the gospel, we are saved from the penalty of sin (Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16, Acts 2:38).

Progressive salvation (sanctification): As we walk with God, the Holy Spirit transforms us into Christ's image, making us more like Him (2 Corinthians 3:18, Romans 8:29).

Final salvation (glorification): When we pass from this life to the next, we will be fully transformed and receive our resurrected bodies, completing our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Philippians 3:20-21).

Our relationship with God is ongoing and dynamic, with each stage building upon the previous one.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Do you believe a person who is filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues can go to hell ( if he dies in that condition)?

An interesting question. But, even in the soteriology you currently hold to, are saints unconditionally saved? Isn't that the conclusion one would draw from the above?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Maybe Don can join us on this thread for added insight.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

An interesting question. But, even in the soteriology you currently hold to, are saints unconditionally saved? Isn't that the conclusion one would draw from the above?

Brother, I’m not sure what you believe I believe about salvation. My understanding of salvation is pretty simplistic. If we repent, and are baptized, we shall be saved. I base this on Acts 2. It seems to me that many Apostolic Pentecostals don’t believe this. So allow me to explain.

In 2:38 if you have repented and been baptized, it says and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Many people view this as a commandment. I don’t think of it as a commandment. I think of it as a promise from God. Because of verse 29.

[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


We have a promise.
Who made that promise?
And do we believe that promise?

I believe salvation is that simple. I do believe we can lose salvation. I believe Hebrews 6 makes that clear.

Regarding the subject at hand, we are really adding to the Bible to assume that speaking in tongues is THE ONLY evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. Especially when we believe that the evidence of tongues is not evidence of salvation.

[Tithesmeister]

Rom.8

[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I think that God doesn’t condemn they who are filled with His Spirit.

[Tithesmeister]

I have a dear sister who believes the UPCI doctrine to a fault. I’m not condemning her for it. I used to be the same way. But if the Bible says the sky is blue, and the UPCI manual says it’s green? The sky is green.

So I asked her if a Methodist spoke in tongues, did they receive the Holy Ghost?
She answered yes. So I asked if they were saved. She said no.

She really believes they received the Holy Ghost. But still they are not saved. Interesting.

This seems to be the case with oneness Pentecostals who claim Azusa Street as their beginnings. It took me years to discover that the church at Azusa Street were trinitarian. But it seems that we believe they were saved. It seems highly inconsistent to me. Kind of like believing speaking in tongues is the initial evidence but only that you received the Holy Ghost. Not that you’re saved.

Now may be a good time for me to say that I do believe that we are to judge many things. I’m not a believer that we should not be able to judge matters. I do however believe that it is not my place to judge salvation.

[Amanah]

It's like the Israelites receiving the commandents on Mount Sinai.

Along with the commandments were blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience.

Did the law save them? no, obedient faith saved them.

God writes the law on our hearts through the Spirit, does the Spirit save us? Not without obedient faith.

So I can't really say tongues saves someone, it's the evidence of the Spirit. But we are saved by grace through obedient faith.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It's like the Israelites receiving the commandents on Mount Sinai.

Along with the commandments were blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience.

Did the law save them? no, obedient faith saved them.

God writes the law on our hearts through the Spirit, does the Spirit save us? Not without obedient faith.

So I can't really say tongues saves someone, it's the evidence of the Spirit. But we are saved by grace through obedient faith.

Rom.8

[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Without the Spirit of Christ you’re none of His.

On the other hand. . .

Rom.8

[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It’s just that simple. Am I missing something?

[Amanah]

It's not just having the Spirit, but also walking after the Spirit to overcome the flesh


Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

[Esaias]

Let's begin with the prophecies of Joel:

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
(Joel 2:28-32 KJV)

As quoted from the Greek LXX used by Peter:
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Acts 2:17-21 KJV)


What was going to happen? The key part is "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy."

There are 7 categories of recipients of the Spirit that are mentioned: all flesh, your sons, your daughters, your old men, your young men, the (my) servants, and the (my) handmaids. The Spirit would be poured out upon 'all flesh', meaning 'everyone'. The following six categories are subdvisions of the 'all flesh'. That means sons, daughters, old men, young men, servants, and handmaidens. Now, all the 'sons' would be all the males, of any age. And all the 'daughters' would be all the females, of any age. Old men and young men are two particular categories of the males, but pretty much covers all the males. Servants are all the males who serve God, and handmaidens are all the females who serve God. Notice, the "young me"n and the "old men" are included in the categories of "sons" and "servants". The "sons" comprise all the males, as does the "servants". They are both the same group - the males. The "daughters" and the "handmaids" likewise are the same group, since both groups are synomyous with 'all the females'.

Each of these categories were to experience something as a result of receiving the Spirit: the sons and daughters were to 'prophesy', the young men were to 'see visions', the old men were to 'dream dreams', and the servants and the handmaids were to 'prophesy'. So we see that all the males ("sons" and "servants") were to "prophesy", and all the females ("daughters" and "handmaids") likewise were to "prophesy". (The old men and the young men are included in the groups of servants and sons.) So there was to be a universal outpouring of the Spirit, and every possible category of person who would receive the Spirit would experience the same thing: they would 'prophesy'. Thus, according to Joel, there was to be a universal 'evidence' or 'sign' of the Spirit being received: each person who received the Spirit was to 'prophesy'.

What does 'prophesy' mean? Why, it means to 'speak the words that God gives you to speak.' It generally means 'ecstatic utterance', it most definitely means speaking forth whatever the Spirit of God leads you to speak. So, the initial evidence, if you will, according to Joel was that people - ALL people - who receive the Spirit would 'prophesy', or speak whatever God gave them to speak.

Now, what actually happened when this came to pass?

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(Acts 2:1-4 KJV)

There was a sound like a strong wind, and there were visions of cloven tongues of fire coming down and sitting upon the disciples, but these things happened BEFORE anyone received the Spirit. When they were 'all filled with the Holy Ghost', they 'began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance'. Each person received the Spirit, and each person began to speak in tongues.

But wait. Joel said they would 'prophesy', yet we see them 'speaking with tongues'. How do we resolve this dilemma, this discrepancy? Notice what Peter said: 'This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.' This is that.

What is what? This means the disciples being filled with the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues. That means the outpouring of God's Spirit upon all his male and female servants and them prophesying. The outpouring of the Spirit is fulfilled in the disciples being filled with the Holy Ghost. And the 'prophesying' is fulfilled in the 'speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance'.

This means that the universal sign clearly stated by Joel is fulfilled by 'speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance'. This means that there is a prophesied, old testament expectation of a universal sign or evidence of receiving the Spirit, and the new testament clearly and unambiguously identifies that evidence as 'speaking with tongues.' In other words, the 'initial evidence doctrine' is found in both the old testament and the new testament.

Now, what exactly was going on in that upper room?

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
(Acts 2:5-6 KJV)

The multitude that gathered showed up after the tongue speaking had commenced. So we can rule out that specious and silly notion that the disciples were speaking in tongues in order to preach to foreignors. But notice carefully what is said: "...because that every man heard them speak in his own language."

Read that again: EVERY man heard THEM speak in HIS OWN language. I'll repeat that for emphasis: EVERY man heard THEM speak in HIS OWN language

The common idea is that some disciples were speaking one language, some another, and so forth. But that is not what the text says. It says that each person in the crowd who gathered to see what was going on, heard EVERY DISCIPLE speaking in HIS OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE. Let me repeat that for emphasis: EACH PERSON in the crowd who gathered to see what was going on, heard EVERY DISCIPLE speaking in HIS OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE.

So the guy from Libya heard EVERY DISCIPLE speaking in Libyan. But the guy from Rome heard EVERY DISCIPLE speaking Latin. And the guy from Greece heard EVERY DISCIPLE speaking Greek. And so forth.

Think on that for a moment. Picture it in your mind. Try to imagine Peter speaking Latin, Greek, Libyan, Phrygian, and however many other languages were represented there - ALL AT THE SAME TIME. And imagine each of the other disciples there doing the exact same thing.

IMPOSSIBLE you say? Yes, it is biologically impossible for a person to simultaneously speak multiple languages AT THE SAME TIME. When a word comes out of your mouth, it will be in one or another language, but not both, or three, or ten.

The disciples were speaking in tongues before anyone showed up to ooh and ahh. So there they are, speaking in tongues. The whole lot of them, all at the same time. A crowd showed up to see what was going on, and lo and behold EACH PERSON in the crowd hears ALL THE DISCIPLES speaking in his own native language. And the crowd is 'confounded'. Indeed, so would you be 'confounded' in such a situation.

IF one disciple was speaking one language, and another disciple speaking another language, and so forth, would you be confounded? No, you might be amused but not confounded. Confounded means 'utterly clueless as to how something can be happening'. Stunned. Blown away. Astonished. Astonied (as the KJV puts it).

BUT WAIT, there's more. Some folks showed up and were NOT confounded at all. They knew exactly what was going on. 'These guys are DRUNK.' They are mad, they are on crack.

And isn't that what Paul said would happen if the UNBELIEVING came in to the midst of a meeting where everyone is 'speaking with tongues'?

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
(1 Corinthians 14:23 KJV)

So how did all those 'devout men' hear every single disciple speaking HIS OWN language, when these disciples were simply 'speaking in tongues'? Apparently God caused them to hear in their own language. Is this too much? Well, was it too much for a sound like a rushing mighty wind, or cloven tongues of fire? Was it too much for the three lepers whose footsteps God amplified into the sound of an approaching army that none but the Syrians could hear in 2 Kings chapter 7?

So then, not only is speaking with tongues the Biblically documented universal, initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, it is also not about speaking in languages known to the hearers.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV)

No man understandeth him... unless God gives a supernatural understanding of what is being said... unless God causes you to hear it in a way that makes sense to you...