The Persecution of Women in the Church

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Daniel, I really wish you'd stop questioning my honesty.

I'd wish you'd stop questioning my and others Apostolicness. Which, of course, goes into one's integrity also. oloroid

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Then there's the issue of the thief officially dying after Jesus died.

Daniel,

You're gonna lose this one.

The issue is when the Holy Ghost, the prophecy of Joel, was fulfilled. Jesus said the Comforter would not come until he went to be with the Father and was glorified.

There were people all through the OT that were had the Holy Spirit in them, a select few.....the prophets and possibly the anointed high priest.

Moses commented that he wished all of God's people had the Spirit. I know this verse says the Spirit was upon them, but there are many others, 2 in the epistles and 1 in Nehemiah I can think of off the top of my head that teach the Spirit was IN them. I believe the Spirit was indwelling not just present to give a prophecy then leave for David asked the Lord to not take his Spirit from him.

The new covenant established by the blood of Christ calls for God to be IN his people. 2 Cor 6:16 and Heb 8:10 When did this happen? Not while Jesus was on the cross. Not while he was in the grave. Not even after his resurrection. It happened after he ascended up to heaven and was seated at the right hand of God....specifically on the day of Pentecost. The day of the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel.

Num 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Daniel,

You're gonna lose this one.

The issue is when the Holy Ghost, the prophecy of Joel, was fulfilled. Jesus said the Comforter would not come until he went to be with the Father and was glorified.

There were people all through the OT that were had the Holy Spirit in them, a select few.....the prophets and possibly the anointed high priest.

Moses commented that he wished all of God's people had the Spirit. I know this verse says the Spirit was upon them, but there are many others, 2 in the epistles and 1 in Nehemiah I can think of off the top of my head that teach the Spirit was IN them. I believe the Spirit was indwelling not just present to give a prophecy then leave for David asked the Lord to not take his Spirit from him.

The new covenant established by the blood of Christ calls for God to be IN his people. 2 Cor 6:16 and Heb 8:10 When did this happen? Not while Jesus was on the cross. Not while he was in the grave. Not even after his resurrection. It happened after he ascended up to heaven and was seated at the right hand of God....specifically on the day of Pentecost. The day of the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel.

Num 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

We mostly agree ... losing is not the issue ... truth is.

[Steve Epley]

I appreciate Sis Alvear posting Elder George & Elder Scheel's writings however
the ONLY passage needed is where a woman preached publicly in a NT assembly to MEN. JUST ONE PASSAGE.
I do agree many godly women have done good works and yes many good men have been saved with a woman preaching and there are strong Apostolic churches today that were started by a godly woman years ago.
But the question is where is it in scripture????????
Look at some proofs used:
1. Jesus told the women to tell his disciples he was risen and where to meet him. Did they go and begin to evangelize the world???? If so where is the record.
2. What about Pheobe???? I don't know what Phoebe did and neither does anyone else. What a proof passage.
3. Your sons and daughters shall prophecy??? What was the name of the woman that preached at Pentecost???? This was where the passage was fulfilled? They were speaking tongues NOT holding revivals or pastoring.
4. Neither male nor female thus can two men marry since they loose their gender when they recieve the HGB?
5. Poor Deborah-Huldah-Mariam-and all those women in Bible are named to support something they would never support in life. NONE could be a levite!!!
My position is there is just NO example-command for women to preach publicly in a NT assembly to men. Can they preach??? I hope they do like those in Acts 8 to everyone they see.
This is NOT an attack on Sis. Alvear I respect her very much and her sacrifice and labor. I am commenting on the subject NOT those wonderful ladies who are preaching.

[Sister Alvear]

I researched and do not believe I have ever read Brother George's book about women. I do have Brother Scheels book however nothing in my book is copied from his book except maybe the same resources. My resources are from other books and writings of non oneness people.
I think most books do mention the same points. My book was written long before Brother Scheels book. I will have to get it down and look at it. Mine was written over 25 years ago and has been updated several times.
Could a gentile be a levite?
There were NO PUBLIC Assemblies succh as we know them only later...You may want to research when the first church buildings were built as we know them.
I do not believe people lose their gender when they recieve the Holy Ghost.

Brother Epley would you have joined Deborah's army?

Would you have obeyed the words of Huldah?
I think it is sick to even suggest that people that believe in women preachers agree with 2 males can marry. That makes me want to vomit.

[Sister Alvear]

Someone justifying his belief that men only could preach the gospel, said that preachers under the law of circumcision were all men. But remember baptism is for both men and women. What circumcision once represented under the Law, baptism now represents for us (both male and female) today (Revelation 1:6 Luke 20:35).
The difference in the priesthood and the ministry is that a person had to be born into the priesthood. Today, we are not born into the ministry but called into the ministry. The only priest in the Old Testament that was "called" was Aaron (Hebrew 5:4). The Levitical priesthood was abolished at Calvary.
Others have said He chose men only for disciples,. Well, they were Jews! Would that same reasoning mean that only Jewish men could be preachers? Of course not! O consistency thou art a jewel! He chose Jacob (younger), not Esau. He chose Moses instead of Aaron. He chose David instead of his brothers, and the list goes on. God does not work by man’s ideas, but He chooses whom He will. God had no trouble finding and using a donkey (female) to rebuke Balaam.
God knows how to humble the proud, and lift up the abased. He used a little boy’s lunch and that story is found in all four gospels. He knows how to use the widow’s two mites. And I’m sure He knows how to use redeemed women to proclaim His Word.
In His great foreknowledge, it is God that chooses who He wants to use. With or without man’s approval, God has and is using His spirit filled women today. They perform tasks which many say, "That’s not a woman’s place!" Just where is a woman’s place?
Some say the woman’s place is in the home. What if she can’t bear children and have the privilege to build a home? What if she is not married? Does she just sit around in a house and do nothing. Does she just live as a hermit of society? Just where is a woman’s place? This is God’s choosing. He chooses her place not another human being.
We can not act as the counselors of God. Some have tried to, but He must laugh at human reasoning. His own Word says, His ways are past finding out.

Some have said, Sis. Alvear, in synagogue services, women were not allowed to sit with the men. Yes, I know that; but when Christianity came there was no separation and no barriers. All became one in Christ Jesus (I Corinthians 7:19; Galatians 3:28; I Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 5:7-8).
It was the Pharisees and Sadducees that believed the woman to be inferior. Jesus was different. He did not hesitate to call a woman daughter of Abraham (Luke 13:16).
Jesus broke every tradition, crossed the boundary line and astonished them with His doctrine. Jesus does not condone one human being superior to another. He does not make slaves. He makes those who are enslaved, free!
I remember some years ago in a church in Alabama, the preacher got up and said, "Well, we have Sis. Janice with us tonight. She claims to be a woman preacher, but since we don’t believe in women preachers, we’ll ask her to come up here and prophesy to us." I just walked to the pulpit and began to tell some of the great things the Lord was doing in Brazil. Perhaps, he thought to hurt and embarrass me, no doubt. I really did not feel either hurt or embarrassed. I felt sorry for his spiritual poverty and elevated ego and his lack of support of God’s ministers.
But the word of God still reads, "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." This preacher had more than just guile in his mouth, he had lust burning in his heart. It wasn’t long till that preacher ran off with a woman who played the piano. A church and two homes were destroyed. His interests were not coming to the help of the Lord. He was more interested in building up his own sinful ego in front of a crowd. He risked everything by trying to cut down God’s anointed but ended up bringing a reproach upon the name of Christ.
I am not saying that every one who doesn’t believe in women preachers has a heart of an adulterer. God forbid! But I am saying there must be something, somewhere wrong when anyone would try to close the mouth of one of God’s messengers. ONE MAY NOT ENDORSE WOMEN PREACHERS, BUT WOE TO THOSE WHO CONDEMN THEM!

[Sister Alvear]

Jude admonished us, everyone, male and female to pull them out of the fire. How can you pull someone out of hell’s fire if you don’t preach Jesus? Speaking God’s word to the hearer as it is mixed with faith will pull anyone out.

MANY men whom I have known that turned against women preachers were saved under a woman’s preaching. I wonder how they can say they are saved if it was under a woman’s preaching they came to the Lord. Why would they have once felt the urging of God’s Spirit though a woman’s voice and now deny that God ever chose a woman to work in His vineyard?
At one time they rejoiced over a woman’s preaching. Today, they try to discourage her and may try to destroy her. Is not God a yes, yes and a no, no, God? I’ve had people to say Oh! Sis. Alvear you can preach to them in the jungles and baptize them in the middle of nowhere, but not so if there’s a man present. My friend if God would use a woman’s hands to baptize in Tinbuctu, use her mouth to preach the gospel in some far, remote place that usually doesn’t even show up on a map, He can use her anywhere.
Some have said God sometimes raises a woman as an exception to the rule. You may say Deborah was an exception to the rule. You may say Deborah was an exception, but would you say Huldah was? Of course not. There were men prophets in Huldah's day. She was not an exception to some God given law; she operated under the divine will of God for her day and for His purpose. There are no geographic restrictions on where a woman can preach. The juristic prohibitions are only in the minds of the carnal thinker.
I’ve never found the scripture that says women go, do, tell, preach, baptize, build churches, and many more things if there are not men present. But I have found the scripture where He commissioned His church to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. I haven’t even found the scriptures telling women to preside over ladies meetings, but the Bible does let us know in Acts 8 that men and women preached everywhere.

Women of today need to draw strength from premonition of the great Deity who knows no limitations. The old well-known poem reads like this, “we are the only Bible this careless world will read.” God is a Spirit. It is you and I that are flesh. We are His feet, His hands, His mouth; we form His earthly body.
We are His helpers. He works through us. No wonder the Bible said when we come together each should contribute. How could each contribute with over half in silence?
It is interesting to know that Paul said "help those women that labor with me in the gospel (Philippians 4:3) and said, "That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to everyone that helpeth with us and laboreth. Paul believed that all Christians should be subject to men and women who are leaders in the church.

[Sister Alvear]

I don’t believe anyone can look around with a burden for this dying world and deny a woman the right to preach the gospel. It would be sinful of us to close a mouth that could bring life, light, hope and salvation. It is the necessity of the hour that has caused me to rise up against odds and write this book to try to stir up God’s people unto a fresh new hope.
Some read into scriptures what they want it to say. Some religious leaders do not agree with the call of God on women. Most religious leaders did not agree with Jesus also.
When He healed the woman that had been bent over eighteen years, they cried out against Him for breaking the Sabbath.
When He raised a dead man from the grave, they plotted how to kill Him. Simon and his religious friends condemned Jesus for letting the sinner woman wash His feet.
They were not happy about Zaccheus's conversion (Luke 19).
It is not the sinner that usually condemns the lady preachers. The condemning comes from the religious world. But our Jesus never condemned anyone except those that condemned.
It’s the religious world that does not agree with how God runs His business. But it make no difference to God what they think. He is sovereign!
I still remember many years ago a little village where we had gone to have service for the first time. After I had explained the plan of salvation and used the words that those that do not obey will be eternally lost, a little woman
raised her hand and said, "Missionary, my mother died three months ago; She never heard; will she be lost?"
It’s a shame that anyone would try to close the mouth of a woman. Crucial issues are at stake when a preacher’s mouth is shut. Will we lapse into the stifling silence to the point that souls are lost? Will we champion the oppression of women by calling it “God's will?"
Men often attempt to control and limit women’s roles and the machinery of the bureaucracies, whether official or unofficial is right at hand to enforce such restrictive desires. Despite this discouragement and obstruction, women continue to come forward to proclaim their faith in vibrant, effective ways.
Nothing that present day scholars uncovered from the dust of the past can or ever will shake the fact that women were and are used of the Lord. In fact, more Deborah-like women will appear from nowhere and rise to lead armies of God’s people to victories.
More Huldah and Pricilla will appear to teach the Word of the Lord. For it is written your sons and daughters shall prophesy (speak under divine anointing). They shall only continue to prove with starling accuracy that the truths of the Bible have withstood man’s oppressions. These ladies mentioned in this simple Bible study are not mythical but are real persons who filled a real place in God’s plan of redemption.
Their lives were composed of great deeds. No wonder Psalm 68:11 says the Lord gives the word (of power). The women bear and publish (the news) are a great host. Isaiah 12:6: "Cry aloud and shalt joyfully, you women and inhabitants of Zion for great in your mist is the Holy One of Israel" (Isaiah 12:6).
The original church breathed into existence by the Spirit of God, knew no distinctions between male and female ministers in Christ. Soul winning is serious business. All help is needed to reach "every creature". Even with a full work force, we need a miracle to reach this lost and dying world.

[Sister Alvear]

The ratio of women missionaries is three women to one man. For volunteers, the ratio is twenty women for one man! In some cultures only women can bring the gospel to pagan people who sit in darkness, for men are not allowed to approach them.
As defenders of the faith, women stand side by side with men in their capacity to face death and endure agonies of persecutions. I wonder after looking at facts, how anyone can still downgrade the anointing and ministry of chosen women of God.
Here is a voice from the “Open Brethren,” G. H. Lang “I feel quite unable to require, in effect, that men must perish eternally rather than that a woman should tell them the good tidings. Let any good brother who feels strongly in the other direction that a woman must be utterly silent in the public presence of men consider whether, if he were unconverted, he would prefer to go to hell rather than be saved through a woman preaching?”
For me being called by God to see with my own eyes, and feel with my own soul, the unutterable need of the millions of mankind that is yet in satanic darkness is sometimes overwhelming. I can but thank God from the depths of my heart for everyone, man or woman, that takes to them the Word of Life to the many souls.

[MissBrattified]

I prefer for a woman not to pastor, but on the other hand, I would not object to having Nona Freeman or Vesta Mangun as a pastor, so perhaps it really depends on the woman?

I will say that I have heard more male speakers that I truly enjoyed or felt they had something in depth to offer than female...but again...perhaps that is because of a lack of opportunity for anointed women to speak, than for a lack of depth? Obviously I have also heard more male speakers than female, so the stats are probably fairly similar now that I think of it. (Deep vs. shallow)

I certainly would not say that women who preach are sinning or out of God's will. I am more dubious of women pastors. (than preachers, evangelists, teachers)