Brainwashing is legal. There should no line be drawn other than illegal activity. If there is confirmed abuse they should be limited to the areas that the eveidence leads IMHO
I agree with this. Child sexual abuse is illegal, in ANY state.
Quote:
An adult's sexual intercourse with a child below the legal age of consent is defined as statutory rape, based on the principle that a child is not capable of consent and that any apparent consent by a child is not considered to be legal consent.
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'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
Umm... it came from the horse's mouth (the legislator that sponsored the bill).
Even if the sponser of the bill had this motive, you would have to prove that was the motivation for those who were actually responsible for PASSING the bill.
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'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split -- 197 girls and 196 boys -- but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.
Surely that wouldn't be due to the allegations that they force young men out of their sect???
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'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
Even if the sponser of the bill had this motive, you would have to prove that was the motivation for those who were actually responsible for PASSING the bill.
Unfortunately that has not been true, when Alabama (I think don't have my info at my finger tips) passed the moment of silence legislation and the author of the bill made the statement that it was for the purpose of putting prayer back in school, the Supreme Court shot it down as unconstitutional based on his statement. Now a sane Court would understand that the motivation of every member of a state legislature does not have that purpose in mind, and legislative intent is a bit weak.
Just a little while ago it was reported that of the 31 of 53 girls who were either pregnant or had children, 2 of them had 2 children, and 2 of them had 3 children. I don't think we're dealing with a case of it just being ONE child, or 5, that is affected by all this. (Of course that's dependant upon whether these are factual news reports.)
And yes, I still believe that under the circumstances that existed when CPS first went to the ranch, that they had no other choice but to remove all the children. It doesn't do us any good to look at facts NOW that might alter the course of events THAT DAY. They did what they had to do given the evidence and facts they found AT THAT TIME.
The Mrs- Ok I want to understand your thoughts and feelings better. So let's say that the reports are 100% accurate and there are 31 pregnant or minor mothers out of 53.... (which I don't believe but for the sake of discussion)
1. Does it matter to you if none of the women feel victimized and they are happy with their lives as they have been living this way for six generations?
2. Does the end justify the means? Was is OK if the phone call hoax was a set up to gain entry to the ranch?
3. Do you think Texas handled it right when they first got to the ranch about 9pm five days after the phone call? Do you think it was Ok to get the children out of their beds at 3am first to question them even as they saw themselves surrounded by an army of people with weapons?
4. Do you think that the response to underage marriage in a state with the highest rate of teenage pregnancies should have been the removal of more than 200 children under five years old? Does it matter that this is never the response of Texas authorities to other identifiable groups where teen age births are rampant and adult fathers the norm?
5. Have you done any research on Texas foster care? Do you know that a news station (in the not so distant past) reported that 2/3 of Texas foster children were reported to be on psychotrophic drugs including those under the age of 5?
6. Did you know that the national outcome for foster children is that more than 70% of the children end up in jail, or homeless, etc.?
7. Do you know what amount of sexual abuse of YOUNG CHILDREN goes on in Texas foster care based on their own admissions?
8. Are these facts meaningless to you because there is a greater good somewhere? If so, what? If not, why such a hard stance against children caught in the chaos?
The Mrs- Ok I want to understand your thoughts and feelings better. So let's say that the reports are 100% accurate and there are 31 pregnant or minor mothers out of 53.... (which I don't believe but for the sake of discussion)
1. Does it matter to you if none of the women feel victimized and they are happy with their lives as they have been living this way for six generations?
None? If that were the case, why are there Carolyn Jessops, Flora Jessops, and Kathy Jo Nicholsons to name a few. http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories.htm The problem with cultic practices is, you won't believe you're in a cult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newman
2. Does the end justify the means? Was is OK if the phone call hoax was a set up to gain entry to the ranch?
3. Do you think Texas handled it right when they first got to the ranch about 9pm five days after the phone call? Do you think it was Ok to get the children out of their beds at 3am first to question them even as they saw themselves surrounded by an army of people with weapons?
Again, I believe that CPS made the right choice with what info they had at the time. A lot of variables and unknowns. They had no guarantees this was not a destructive cult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newman
4. Do you think that the response to underage marriage in a state with the highest rate of teenage pregnancies should have been the removal of more than 200 children under five years old? Does it matter that this is never the response of Texas authorities to other identifiable groups where teen age births are rampant and adult fathers the norm?
Just because the state has the highest teen pregnancy rate doesn't make it legal. Or right. (Are you trying to justify bad behavior by bad behavior?) Are minors with babies left to themselves when discovered? Or are they remanded to a guardian/parent?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newman
5. Have you done any research on Texas foster care? Do you know that a news station (in the not so distant past) reported that 2/3 of Texas foster children were reported to be on psychotrophic drugs including those under the age of 5?
6. Did you know that the national outcome for foster children is that more than 70% of the children end up in jail, or homeless, etc.?
7. Do you know what amount of sexual abuse of YOUNG CHILDREN goes on in Texas foster care based on their own admissions?
I just saw Dr. Phil talking about this in a video clip. My first thoughts: why would you associate the two groups and assume a similar outcome? You have to first realize that the children that are placed in foster care have come from a rough life, and are most likely not going to change that direction already started before they arrived in foster care.
And secondly, these FLDS children were not set up in individual foster homes. They were placed in GROUP HOMES. The state made efforts to keep siblings together. See Court Document: Placement of Children here They are also making efforts to provide the style of living they are accustomed to while on the ranch; food, clothes, education, religious practices. (It was even reported that one of the homes repainted a red wall so as not to offend the children, and that red items were removed.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newman
8. Are these facts meaningless to you because there is a greater good somewhere? If so, what? If not, why such a hard stance against children caught in the chaos?
Which outweighs which?
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'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
According to the Bishop's Records there are 5 girls listed as 'wife' at the ages of 16.
Pg. 4 ~Elizabeth Luverne(sp) Jessop, age 16, married to LeRoy J. Steed, age 40, 8 wives
Pg. 9 ~Rachel Keate Allred, age 16, married to Lehi B. Allred, age 28, 3 wives
Pg. 11 ~Rebecca Keate Dutson, age 16, married to Keith William Dutson, Jr., age 22, only wife
Pg. 12 ~ Sarah Cathleen Jessop Nielsen, age 16, married to Luke Seth Nielsen, age 19, only wife
Pg. 13 ~Suzanne Jessop Jeffs, age 16, married to Abram Harker Jeffs, age 35, 5 wives
~Only 2 of those 'marriages' are legal. (Unless, of course, these husbands have an actual Marriage Certificate with that girl, and that girl only.)
~3 others were listed as wives with the ages of 17. One was the wife of one man, with an 8-month old son. Guess she was 16 when she was married?
~It only lists 12 girls between the ages of 14-17.
Of course these families may not even live at the YFZ Ranch. Or have anything to do with the families there, but this is a document that was confiscated from the YFZ Ranch.
Would love to see the family trees!
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'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
None? If that were the case, why are there Carolyn Jessops, Flora Jessops, and Kathy Jo Nicholsons to name a few. http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories.htm The problem with cultic practices is, you won't believe you're in a cult.
Again, I believe that CPS made the right choice with what info they had at the time. A lot of variables and unknowns. They had no guarantees this was not a destructive cult.
Just because the state has the highest teen pregnancy rate doesn't make it legal. Or right. (Are you trying to justify bad behavior by bad behavior?) Are minors with babies left to themselves when discovered? Or are they remanded to a guardian/parent?
I just saw Dr. Phil talking about this in a video clip. My first thoughts: why would you associate the two groups and assume a similar outcome? You have to first realize that the children that are placed in foster care have come from a rough life, and are most likely not going to change that direction already started before they arrived in foster care.
And secondly, these FLDS children were not set up in individual foster homes. They were placed in GROUP HOMES. The state made efforts to keep siblings together. See Court Document: Placement of Children here They are also making efforts to provide the style of living they are accustomed to while on the ranch; food, clothes, education, religious practices. (It was even reported that one of the homes repainted a red wall so as not to offend the children, and that red items were removed.)
Which outweighs which?
The Mrs -
Different Accounts of Walking Away
How hard was it for Jessup to walk away with her 8 kids? She only had to get them in the van to go to the dentist. But she is making alot of money selling books now and embellishing the stories as she goes along.
I had posted a different account by another polygamist wife survivor earlier on this thread. She mostly felt positive about her sheltered youth and walked away as an adult. She thought that 95% of the people that left felt like she did but the vocal 5% paint a story she didn't experience.
There are plenty of horror stories around for many denominations. But that doesn't mean the experience is the same for all members of that group.
Better or Worse off Compared to What?
I have no experiences with cults and may not be as horrified as I should by 16year olds getting married. Given the morality today; I am not convinced that these young women are worse off then 16 year olds having sex with men that aren't committed to them.
The Foster Care System
Having said what I don't know much about, I would point out that I do have first hand experience with the foster care system and broken lives. There are too many problems to enumerate and I am not anonymous. (I would also add that some of the best people in the world are foster parents and I don't want to take anything from them).
Suffice is to say when broken children come in contact with other children; the results can be tragic all the way around and contribute to the dire statistics that Dr. Phil is quoting. Consequently, even children going in to foster care that weren't abused may in fact be abused by the system that was designed to help them.
How long will Texas continue to cater to this group by keeping them together at the tune of $17,000 per day? Probably only so long as the spot light shines on them.
Attachment Disorder
Also, we need to consider the plight of the very young children abruptly removed from their mother's care. Psychologists know they are at risk for developing attachment disorders; never ever able to really love as an adult; especially so if they continue to be moved about.
Saving Face
As far as I am concerned; Texas did not meet their legal obligation in removing all the children against their own expert witness opinion without individual due process. In my opinion, the judge was way out of line for not allowing other visiting judges to hear individual cases.
I do not believe they acted in the best interest of the young children but let their prejudice run ahead of them in conducting the raid and needed to save face. Given that judges are elected in Texas, I am doubtful that an appeal to another Texas Court would prevail.
Different Perspectives
And so it appears that we see this through different eyes. Most importantly, I hope you are right and the children will be ok after all is said and done.
Just heard on the news that a woman in custody gave birth today, but claims her age is 22. She is going to be allowed out of state custody but her baby will remain with foster parents. She does have the choice to stay with the infant, however.
It's also said that there are at least 27 females being held as minors initially who have been proven to be of legal age thus far. This is compelling for a major lawsuit against the state of Texas, IMO.
There is more to this than meets the eye, I'm afraid. It seems more and more likely that it's religious in nature, and not the mere acting out of concern for the children any longer.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Just heard on the news that a woman in custody gave birth today, but claims her age is 22. She is going to be allowed out of state custody but her baby will remain with foster parents. She does have the choice to stay with the infant, however.
It's also said that there are at least 27 females being held as minors initially who have been proven to be of legal age thus far. This is compelling for a major lawsuit against the state of Texas, IMO.
There is more to this than meets the eye, I'm afraid. It seems more and more likely that it's religious in nature, and not the mere acting out of concern for the children any longer.
Well it appears from the testimony of one of the men of the group that the children are married off before the age of 16 with the parents given consent. I'd be interested to know if the young girls had a choice...I would think not.
'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
(Of course that's dependant upon whether these are factual news reports.) 
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