All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!! - Page 82

Originalist · #**811** 07-15-2014, 11:31 PM

[QUOTE=Abiding Now;1325257][QUOTE=Abiding Now;1325047]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

Didn't like my apology, forget it.

But I have not "repeatedly called you a trinitarian", I said you answer/view scripture like a Trinitarian.

I am not discussing the Godhead so it would not be possible for me to sound like a Trinitarian.

BTW why did you bring up John 20:23 if you were not edging towards a discussion on whether or not we remit someone's sins when we baptize them?
Were you driving at something else?

Abiding Now · #**812** 07-15-2014, 11:41 PM

[QUOTE=Originalist;1325262][QUOTE=Abiding Now;1325257]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

I am not discussing the Godhead so it would not be possible for me to sound like a Trinitarian.

BTW why did you bring up John 20:23 if you were not edging towards a discussion on whether or not we remit someone's sins when we baptize them?
Were you driving at something else?

You might be surprised how you "sound" and are coming across doctrinally with your posts. I repeat, I NEVER said or believed that men forgive sins. but when the preacher calls (invokes) the name of Jesus over a repentant, the preacher is being obedient to God (Matt. 28:19) and God forgives the sins. Simple.

Originalist · #**813** 07-15-2014, 11:46 PM

[QUOTE=Abiding Now;1325265][QUOTE=Originalist;1325262]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

You might be surprised how you "sound" and are coming across doctrinally with your posts. I repeat, I NEVER said or believed that men forgive sins. but when the preacher calls (invokes) the name of Jesus over a repentant, the preacher is being obedient to God (Matt. 28:19) and God forgives the sins. Simple.

So again, it's the PREACHER'S obedience to God that brings forth the forgiveness of the sinner. Gotcha. You use John 20:23 as a proof text for this?

Let's try this once more....

By your theory a sinner could weep and repent, run into a baptismal pool screaming "Jesus I repent! I have sinned against you and you alone!! I cry out for your mercy! I believe you died for me and rose again and that you are Lord! I give all to you now", and while he is screaming these words the pastor immerses him under the water without uttering one word. The convert comes up out of the water being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues. He begins to bear fruit of righteousness. He starts winning souls left and right. He is a humble man and greatly strengthens and encourages his brethren. He later becomes a missionary shaking the nations of the world. Finally he is captured by hostile foes of the gospel and is burned alive for the testimony of Christ.

As he stands before the throne, God says, "I am sorry, but in spite of how much you loved me and I loved you, and how you selflessly gave your all for me and made me the center of everything, I must consign you to hell for eternity because when you got baptized the preacher forgot to say 'in Jesus' name. I realize you were shouting and worshipping at the time , and did not notice that the preacher did not use my name. But hey, that's too bad. I can't compromise.'"

So Abiding Now, would this man in your opinion go to hell? Do you believe scenarios like this one happen in God's courtroom? Nobody else will answer this, maybe you will.

Abiding Now · #**814** 07-15-2014, 11:49 PM

[QUOTE=Originalist;1325268][QUOTE=Abiding Now;1325265]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

So again, it's the PREACHER'S obedience to God that brings forth the forgiveness of the sinner. Gotcha.

Let's try this once more....

By your theory a sinner could weep and repent, run into a baptismal pool screaming "Jesus I repent! I have sinned against you and you alone!! I cry out for your mercy! I believe you died for me and rose again and that you are Lord! I give all to you now", and while he is screaming these words the pastor immerses him under the water without uttering one word. The convert comes up out of the water being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues. He begins to bear fruit of righteousness. He starts winning souls left and right. He is a humble man and greatly strengthens and encourages his brethren. He later becomes a missionary shaking the nations of the world. Finally he is captured by hostile foes of the gospel and is burned alive for the testimony of Christ.

As he stands before the throne, God says, "I am sorry, but in spite of how much you loved me and I loved you, and how you selflessly gave your all for me and made me the center of everything, I must consign you to hell for eternity because when you got baptized the preacher forgot to say 'in Jesus' name. I realize you were shouting and worshipping at the time , and did not notice that the preacher did not use my name. But hey, that's too bad. I can't compromise.'"

So Abiding Now, would this man in your opinion go to hell? Do you believe scenarios like this one happen in God's courtroom? Nobody else will answer this, maybe you will.

Why wouldn't the preacher baptize a person in Jesus Name?

Originalist · #**815** 07-15-2014, 11:53 PM

[QUOTE=Abiding Now;1325269][QUOTE=Originalist;1325268]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Why wouldn't the preacher baptize a person in Jesus Name?

Why won't Abiding Now answer a simple question? Truly amazing.

Abiding Now · #**816** 07-15-2014, 11:55 PM

[QUOTE=Originalist;1325270][QUOTE=Abiding Now;1325269]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

Why won't Abiding Now answer a simple question? Truly amazing.

Your is dealing with hypotheticals and my is real.

Good night.

Abiding Now · #**817** 07-15-2014, 11:57 PM

And thanks for an enjoyable evening.

Originalist · #**818** 07-16-2014, 12:03 AM

[QUOTE=Abiding Now;1325271][QUOTE=Originalist;1325270]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Your is dealing with hypotheticals and my is real.

Good night.

You were asking a question about a hypothetical pastor, you too were dealing in hypotheticals.

mfblume · #**819** 07-16-2014, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

Mike, you really need to read my posts. I am not questioning the mode of baptism.

Furthermore, I do not think casting out a living entity is the same as casting out sin. When I baptize someone using the name of Jesus in my proclamation, I'm not saying "Sins I command you to leave in Jesus' name".

i know you're not questioning the mode, but you're opening up for possibilities outside the biblical norm. Eit her way, there's power in the name. Sins or demon do not matter. Its the power. Not like abracadabra though. Not sound waves. Identity.

Originalist · #**820** 07-16-2014, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

i know you're not questioning the mode, but you're opening up for possibilities outside the biblical norm. Eit her way, there's power in the name. Sins or demon do not matter. Its the power. Not like abracadabra though. Not sound waves. Identity.

The only reason there is power in the name is because of the cross...

Quote:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:9-11)

Because of his obedience unto the death of the cross, God counts the blood of Jesus as payment for our ransom, and gives Jesus alone the authority to forgive and justify. That is the significance of "the name".

Furthermore, the "name" of Jesus is the same as the "person" of Jesus. As one writer explained....

Quote:

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Notice here first that we are speaking today of someone who was crucified, and someone who has risen from the dead! What does Peter say? "By Him" this man stands before them whole. By His name and By Him are one and the same. When we ask something "in Jesus' name" we are asking Him, Jesus, to answer. When Peter prayed for the lame man to be healed, he didn't get back a form letter, or a fax or an e-mail from heaven-Jesus answered the prayer, and the man was healed.

This is why I think we as Apostolics are sometimes guilty of separating the name of Jesus from the person of Jesus.

Saying that there is "power in the name of Jesus" is the same as saying Jesus has all power. It's not the sound or vocalization that causes demons to tremble, but the remembrance of who it is that possesses that name and what he did to them at the cross and resurrection. If it was just vocalization of his name that has the power, or if using the name to cast out demons is the same as using it out "cast out sins", then we have a problem. The sons of Sceva bought into that myth when they used the vocalized name of Jesus to cast out a devils, and look where it got them. By your theory Mike a convert could be baptized in Jesus' name by a secretly backslid preacher and those sins would not leave because the preacher was not right, just like the demons would not leave though the sons of Sceva used the name of Jesus.

The point is, JESUS CHRIST forgives sinners who call upon his name, or call upon HIM, when they repent and are baptized. Jesus does not wait to see what the preacher says before he forgives them. I do not understand why some preachers stubbornly hold on to the Matthew 28 formula, or continue to teach that baptism is not essential to salvation. But God will not limit forgiveness of sins to the whims of a preacher.