Tulsa Report Day 2

[revrandy]

the prhase has been on my mind lately...

From the Garden of Eden until today I don't think we as people have changed much...

Education, Technology and the Times may have changed but our most basic needs haven't....Acceptance, Fellowship and Relevance....

Liberals and Conservatives aren't that different in actions...

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by revrandy

the prhase has been on my mind lately...

From the Garden of Eden until today I don't think we as people have changed much...

Education, Technology and the Times may have changed but our most basic needs haven't....Acceptance, Fellowship and Relevance....

Liberals and Conservatives aren't that different in actions...

Ok.

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Ok.

They may live different lifestyles but they are still each doing what is right in their own eyes and many base these decisions on acceptance, fellowship and relevance....whether right or wrong....

You are or become who you hang out with.....rings true.....If I hung out with the WPF crowd I would do the things they do....

If I hung out with the more Liberal crowd I would probaly do the things they do over time...

what to do in the middle tho???...............

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by revrandy

They may live different lifestyles but they are still each doing what is right in their own eyes and many base these decisions on acceptance, fellowship and relevance....whether right or wrong....

You are or become who you hang out with.....rings true.....If I hung out with the WPF crowd I would do the things they do....

If I hung out with the more Liberal crowd I would probaly do the things they do over time...

what to do in the middle tho???...............

And then there are those of us who choose who we "hang out with" based on our convictions, rather than the other way around, as you described.

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

And then there are those of us who choose who we "hang out with" based on our convictions, rather than the other way around, as you described.

The term birds of a feather flock together certainly rings true....

I do have to get to work as it were!!! but I would like to come back to this....

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Resolution 4 is in my opinion a symptom of what troubles me, moreso than the substance of what troubles me.

I am hesitant to say too much in this medium, because of how easy it is to be misunderstood and quoted out of context. I have been burned pretty bad that way a time or two. But you asked, so here goes...

I think we are losing our sense of uniqueness as a people. We are plagued by a craving for the acceptance and affirmation of the world Jesus said would hate us.

I don't think we should try to be offensive in our manner or our presentation of the Gospel, but the truth is He is referred to as a rock of offense, and s stone of stumbling. We are fooling ourselves if we think we can get all cozy with the trinitarians and the denominational world and still please God.

I think we are reaping the results of a couple of decades of men screaming "Revival!" at all our big meetings rather than preaching and teaching something that would have helped us a lot more--like evangelism and righteousness.

We took down the sign that identified us as the carriers of the message of the Mighty God in Christ and traded it for the sign that said "Revival!"

I believe in revival if I believe in anything, but I'm afraid we are hooked on hype and are willing to swallow most anything if it gives us a false sense of the signifigance in the eyes of the world that we so desperately crave.

I think we are so concerned with being "relevant" to the world that we are in danger of becoming irrelevant to the plan of God.

I don't think we place nearly enough emphasis on the Teacher in the five fold ministry. We like entertainment oriented preaching much better.

We place more value on what appears to be success, I'm afraid, than we do on character. It sways the crowds better and produces better offerings.

We are in love with the machinery of the organization so much that we have a hard time seeing how dysfunctional it is becoming.

There.

That's a start. That ought to be enough to get me shot full of holes from both, or rather all, sides.

Coonskinner, I just LOVE you!

(in a manly, brotherly, non-weird sort of way)

This is EXACTLY what I am seeing. We're adopting worldly methods, mindsets, and even songs, and trying to pass them off as authentically Apostolic.

This is a moment of clarity worth preserving.

[RevBuddy]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner
Resolution 4 is in my opinion a symptom of what troubles me, moreso than the substance of what troubles me.

I agree with you, CS, that the resolution is only a symptom...not a root cause. Some have said it is the "straw" that broke the camel's back, but these same folks are not clear on what the other "straws" were.

I am hesitant to say too much in this medium, because of how easy it is to be misunderstood and quoted out of context. I have been burned pretty bad that way a time or two. But you asked, so here goes...

CS, I really do think it is important for each of us to speak up about our feelings on these issues. We are One in Him and the effects of this world on all of us are impacting each of us in a little different manner.

I think we are losing our sense of uniqueness as a people. We are plagued by a craving for the acceptance and affirmation of the world Jesus said would hate us.

[B]Agreed! I believe we are running away from our heritage as fast as we can (as a movement, that is). It seems to me, that in general, our movement is attempting to imitate the previous "charismatic" movement in methods, programs, service style and worship. I strongly believe this is a diasterous mistake. We must cherish that apostolic heritage that has brought us to this point in our history. We are not doing that right now.

I don't think we should try to be offensive in our manner or our presentation of the Gospel, but the truth is He is referred to as a rock of offense, and s stone of stumbling. We are fooling ourselves if we think we can get all cozy with the trinitarians and the denominational world and still please God.

His Word will not return void; it will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent. Yes, we must teach and preach with the love of Jesus, but we must preach His Word and His Truth. I realize that there is a divergence of what is Truth, but the glorious apostolic message that caused me to seek Him is the message for today also.

I think we are reaping the results of a couple of decades of men screaming "Revival!" at all our big meetings rather than preaching and teaching something that would have helped us a lot more--like evangelism and righteousness.

This absolutely has happened. And, many of these voice were promoting "revival" with an evangelastic approach - overstating, in several instances, the actual revival "results." It has caused a crisis of credibility.

We took down the sign that identified us as the carriers of the message of the Mighty God in Christ and traded it for the sign that said "Revival!"

CS, we have also traded the message for some new "method," too.

I believe in revival if I believe in anything, but I'm afraid we are hooked on hype and are willing to swallow most anything if it gives us a false sense of the signifigance in the eyes of the world that we so desperately crave.

Have we left our "first love?"

I think we are so concerned with being "relevant" to the world that we are in danger of becoming irrelevant to the plan of God.

No doubt, this is true.

I don't think we place nearly enough emphasis on the Teacher in the five fold ministry. We like entertainment oriented preaching much better.

We place more value on what appears to be success, I'm afraid, than we do on character. It sways the crowds better and produces better offerings.

We are in love with the machinery of the organization so much that we have a hard time seeing how dysfunctional it is becoming.

The question is "has the organization outlived its effectiveness?"

There.

That's a start. That ought to be enough to get me shot full of holes from both, or rather all, sides.

CS, I'd like to start another thread that discusses these issues in more depth.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Resolution 4 is in my opinion a symptom of what troubles me, moreso than the substance of what troubles me.

I am hesitant to say too much in this medium, because of how easy it is to be misunderstood and quoted out of context. I have been burned pretty bad that way a time or two. But you asked, so here goes...

I think we are losing our sense of uniqueness as a people. We are plagued by a craving for the acceptance and affirmation of the world Jesus said would hate us.

I don't think we should try to be offensive in our manner or our presentation of the Gospel, but the truth is He is referred to as a rock of offense, and s stone of stumbling. We are fooling ourselves if we think we can get all cozy with the trinitarians and the denominational world and still please God.

I think we are reaping the results of a couple of decades of men screaming "Revival!" at all our big meetings rather than preaching and teaching something that would have helped us a lot more--like evangelism and righteousness.

We took down the sign that identified us as the carriers of the message of the Mighty God in Christ and traded it for the sign that said "Revival!"

I believe in revival if I believe in anything, but I'm afraid we are hooked on hype and are willing to swallow most anything if it gives us a false sense of the signifigance in the eyes of the world that we so desperately crave.

I think we are so concerned with being "relevant" to the world that we are in danger of becoming irrelevant to the plan of God.

I don't think we place nearly enough emphasis on the Teacher in the five fold ministry. We like entertainment oriented preaching much better.

We place more value on what appears to be success, I'm afraid, than we do on character. It sways the crowds better and produces better offerings.

We are in love with the machinery of the organization so much that we have a hard time seeing how dysfunctional it is becoming.

There.

That's a start. That ought to be enough to get me shot full of holes from both, or rather all, sides.

CS I agree with what you have said here.

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

The question is "has the organization outlived its effectiveness?"

There.

That's a start. That ought to be enough to get me shot full of holes from both, or rather all, sides.

CS, I'd like to start another thread that discusses these issues in more depth.

RB,

I believe that this is one of the truly important questions that has been lost in the whole Tulsa discussion. There are many who are leaving or have left the UPCI who are not joining the WPF. There was a parting of the ways coming whether or not there was a WPF. By having the Tulsa meeting they took a lot of attention, certainly on this board anyway, off the question you raise and placed it on themselves.

[mizpeh]

Bump for The Dean.