Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening... - Page 81

The Mrs · #**801** 05-08-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newman

cneasttx- The power to take away chldren and give them to strangers to raise is arguably mightier than the power to imprison adults or even execute them.

If this travesty were to end tomorrow it is doubtful the mothers and fathers in Texas will get back the same innocent children that were forcefully removed from them.

When the state can take your children away to be raised by stangers because your beliefs aren't politically correct; then there is no genuine freedom of religion, association, or speech.

And for the record; beliefs were the issue stated on the record that resulted in ALL of the children being removed. There was no actual finding of specific acts of physical or sexual abuse regarding individual children.

This is not a politically correct issue. It's a legal issue. It's child abuse.

Polygamy is not the problem. Living together is not the problem. Marrying and having sex with children is the problem.

Newman · #**802** 05-08-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina

Sister

If it MAY NOT Constitutionally be labeled abuse

does this mean that it MAY?

Or does it mean that it MUST NOT be labeled abuse?

Maybe the authorities read some of YFZ's leader Jeffs sermons.

In the sermon that sent him to prison for accomplice to rape he said to a 14 year old girl:

"You belong to him. You are to obey him."
Nina

Nina- It is unfair to poison the well concerning a group of 463 chldren (CPS numbers) based on this miserble poster child used to taint every one in this particular Eldorado community.

His view should only be given weight pertaining to his own children when it comes to taking children away from their parents. The other parents should speak for themselves and their own viewpoint.

After all, Jeffs can talk all he wants but that doesn't mean all the congregation is on the same page. At least that is the argument that Obama makes concerning his former pastor, is it not? And last I knew he may become our next president despite sitting 20 years under a pastor who preached hatred.

Now, the heart of the matter is this.... How many Conservative Christian churches out there still ask the bride to be if she promises to "obey" her husband? Indoctrination and abuse or not? Does this belief in and of itself equal child abuse?

Newman · #**803** 05-08-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Sometimes we underestimate the power of brainwashing...I do not think the case was handled right however someone needs to make sure these kids are not being raped.

I see grave danger in what the state did for if they did it once they can do it again...

“He that would make his own liberty secure must guard ever his enemy from oppression”

~Thomas Pain, Disertation on the First Principles of Governent

Newman · #**804** 05-08-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mrs

This is not a politically correct issue. It's a legal issue. It's child abuse.

Polygamy is not the problem. Living together is not the problem. Marrying and having sex with children is the problem.

The Mrs- At what age would marriage not be child abuse pertaining to young women who have been raised since birth to be good wives and mothers?

....and consequently desire nothing more than to have babies and raise children to do likewise? (THIS BEING A POLITICALLY INCORRECT IDEA AMONG WOMEN JUDGES AND SOCIAL WORKERS)

The age of consent in Texas is 17. Does that arbitrary number magically define the parameters of child abuse or not?

Nina · #**805** 05-08-2008, 05:33 PM

Sister,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newman

Nina- It is unfair to poison the well concerning a group of 463 chldren (CPS numbers) based on this miserble poster child used to taint every one in this particular Eldorado community.

His view should only be given weight pertaining to his own children when it comes to taking children away from their parents. The other parents should speak for themselves and their own viewpoint.

That's not what the State of Utah thinks

After all, Jeffs can talk all he wants but that doesn't mean all the congregation is on the same page.

Remember the rape charge? Jeffs didn't lay a finger on that child

At least that is the argument that Obama makes concerning his former pastor, is it not? And last I knew he may become our next president despite sitting 20 years under a pastor who preached hatred.

That's another thread!

Now, the heart of the matter is this.... How many Conservative Christian churches out there still ask the bride to be if she promises to "obey" her husband? Indoctination and abuse or not? Does this belief in and of itself equal child abuse?

That depends on the meaning of the word "obey"

Nina

Newman · #**806** 05-08-2008, 05:48 PM

Nina- What does obey mean?

I will be back later....

The Mrs · #**807** 05-08-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newman

The Mrs- At what age would marriage not be child abuse pertaining to young women who have been raised since birth to be good wives and mothers?

....and consequently desire nothing more than to have babies and raise children to do likewise? (THIS BEING A POLITICALLY INCORRECT IDEA AMONG WOMEN JUDGES AND SOCIAL WORKERS)

The age of consent in Texas is 17. Does that arbitrary number magically define the parameters of child abuse or not?

Whatever age the law requires according to the state/country residence is taken in.

Quote:

The age of consent is the minimum age at which a person is considered to be capable of legally giving informed consent to any contract or behaviour regulated by law with another person.

These laws were put in place for a reason. To protect children who are deemed unable to make informed decisions for themselves.

And while the age of consent is 17 in TX, it's Marriageable Age is 18 -16 with parental consent. (It's interesting to see the different Marriageable Ages in the different countries and states around the world.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

Maybe the polygamist groups should move to New Hampshire to avoid breaking laws.

HeavenlyOne · #**808** 05-08-2008, 06:28 PM

I still don't see why ALL the children had to be removed for what appears to be just a few (when you consider the total numbers) children having children.

Cindy · #**809** 05-08-2008, 07:31 PM

Well I think those kids need advocates. CPS, doctors, social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists, and attorneys. If any of them were abused they need advocates against the FLDS, Jeff Warren, the men who molested them and their parents. Because I believe if someone, even a parent allows someone to abuse their children they should be in jail along with the abuser. In this case it seems like the parents facilitated the abuse. And it is still not about religion or parental rights it's about the children from both sides of the issue. It's about the protecting the CHILDREN. From their parents, the FLDS, and even the state of Texas if need be.

The Mrs · #**810** 05-08-2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I still don't see why ALL the children had to be removed for what appears to be just a few (when you consider the total numbers) children having children.

A better question:

Why are they 'marrying' minors? And having children as children themselves?

Why can't this polygamist groups just wait till these children are adults?

If they want to live together as adults, I have no problem with that. That would be living out their religious convictions without breaking any laws.