All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, the name of Jesus we use is connected to faith to make it powerful....Acts 3:16
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you allIf the Apostle never physically spoke the name "Jesus" by faith the miracle wouldnt have happened. Water baptism is identical...it requires a spoken name and faith....Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth(faith) and is baptized(in the NAME) shall be saved; but he that believeth not(no faith) shall be damned.


It is all in how it is used....we use it(Jesus name) by faith to do miracles and remit sins, but the unbelievers use it as a cuss word.

We can see the contrast and effects from the way it is used.

but again, we must not separate the name from the one bearing the name. Sean, I'd like you to prayerfully consider the illustration I gave to abiding now. You and I , of course, will indeed always invoke the name of Jesus when we baptize. I'm certainly not looking for a reason not to do so. But please just sit back for a minute and think about a scenario like the one I painted in my last post. Then get back to me.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You are a liar. You keep referring to me as Trinitarian. You know I am not. That makes you a liar and on your way to hell unless you repent.

The issue being discussed in our current dialog is not the godhead, thus making your Trinitarian accusation that much more illogical. What you and I are debating is whether or not you and I have the power of remission of sins on our tongues. That question is not a trinity or oneness question.

The question at hand is whether or not you and I forgive sins or does Jesus Christ forgive sins?

By your theory a sinner could weep and repent, run into a baptismal pool screaming "Jesus I repent! I have sinned against you and you alone!! I cry out for your mercy! I believe you died for me and rose again and that you are Lord! I give all to you now", and while he is screaming these words the pastor immerses him under the water without uttering one word. The convert comes up out of the water being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues. He begins to bear fruit of righteousness. He starts winning souls left and right. He is a humble man and greatly strengthens and encourages his brethren. He later becomes a missionary shaking the nations of the world. Finally he is captured by hostile foes of the gospel and is burned alive for the testimony of Christ.

As he stands before the throne, God says, "I am sorry, but in spite of how much you loved me and I loved you, and how you selflessly gave your all for me and made me the center of everything, I must consign you to hell for eternity because when you got baptized the preacher forgot to say 'in Jesus' name'"

You essentially believe a similar scene is played out in Heaven every day many times over in the courtroom of heaven. You and many others are blasphemers and will be rejected at the judgment seat of Christ for teaching such as blasphemous doctrine.

The word "remission" in Acts 2:38 is literally translated "forgiveness" in the Greek. We are baptized "in order that" are sins can be FORGIVEN. But some of you boldly proclaim on here the act of baptism mixed with your invocations somehow "washes away sins". You are missing it! When a sinner repents and is buried with Christ, the baptism does not forgive him or take away his sins, neither do your words! Who then forgives them? JESUS DOES! This is why they are baptized, so JESUS can forgive them! And why does Jesus forgive them? Because the baptism itself was perfect? NO!! He forgives them because of their faith and repentance, because they are making him Lord!!

BTW your take on John 15:3 should embarrass YOU! HIS word is the cleansing word, not mine or yours. Furthermore you are not interpreting that verse in light of verses 1 and 2 where Jesus is speaking of purging already existing branches. You do not know how to interpret scripture.

Touched a nerve did I? Read it again I said you were viewing the scripture from a "trinitarian view". If that's offensive to you, I apologize and will not post it again. As far as you hypothetical little story, nice, you might use that in a youth service sometime. Please tell how you define this verse.

Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Thanks.

[Sean]

Bro. as far as what I read of your post, my last post "trumped it". The name of Jesus MUST be spoken by an individual(even if we baptize or speak it upon ourselves) to bring healing or remit sins. Aside from that, there is only philosophical ideas to say it is not connected. The Lord Jesus, honors His name when we speak it.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Touched a nerve did I? Read it again I said you were viewing the scripture from a "trinitarian view". If that's offensive to you, I apologize and will not post it again. As far as you hypothetical little story, nice, you might use that in a youth service sometime. Please tell how you define this verse.

Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Thanks.

No you did not touch a nerve and I was not offended. I was exposing YOUR motive and your willingness to lie.

Interesting how you really won't comment on the illustration I gave. I can understand why you didn't though. You gotta keep God's hands tied. Like Jonah, you can't stand the thought of people being in heaven who didn't get every detail right. You want God to burn them.

Concerning John 20:23. This is exemplified in Acts 8....

9 Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great,

13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!

21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

Jesus gave the apostles the power to discern who was a true and false covert and to say so publically. That is what John 20:23 is referring to. According to you, the Apostles "forgave" Simon when he was baptized. Yet we see in verse 23 that and that he was still a captive of sin. So much for the Apostle's power to forgive sins.

Furthermore, by your interpretation, John 20:23 would have to include post salvation sins of Christians as well, that you have the authority to forgive a Christian if he sins.

What else can I help you with this evening?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Bro. as far as what I read of your post, my last post "trumped it". The name of Jesus MUST be spoken by an individual(even if we baptize or speak it upon ourselves) to bring healing or remit sins. Aside from that, there is only philosophical ideas to say it is not connected. The Lord Jesus, honors His name when we speak it.

So Jesus did not honor his name when the sinner cried it aloud in repentance in the waters of baptism? To be clear, in spite of everything that happened in his life afterward, he went to hell? Is that what you are saying?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

So God did not honor his name when the sinner cried it aloud in repentance in the waters of baptism? To be clear, in spite of everything that happened in his life afterward, he went to hell? Is that what you are saying?

You know I dont send all unbaptized folks to hell. They just die under the Law, like the vast majority of humanity(probably 90%). God will judge them rightfully at the Great White Throne...folks will be saved there.... For all I know, if a sinner cries out the name of Jesus during baptism, he unwittingly baptized himself in the name of Jesus. The Lord will judge that incident. If there is any doubt of what was said though, I recommend that they get baptized again for conscience sake.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Originalist

No you did not touch a nerve and I was not offended. I was exposing YOUR motive and your willingness to lie.

Interesting how you really won't comment on the illustration I gave. I can understand why you didn't though. You gotta keep God's hands tied. Like Jonah, you can't stand the thought of people being in heaven who didn't get every detail right. You want God to burn them.

Concerning John 20:23. This is exemplified in Acts 8....



Jesus gave the apostles the power to discern who was a true and false covert and to say so publically. That is what John 20:23 is referring to. According to you, the Apostles "forgave" Simon when he was baptized. Yet we see in verse 23 that and that he was still a captive of sin. So much for the Apostle's power to forgive sins.

Furthermore, by your interpretation, John 20:23 would have to include post salvation sins of Christians as well, that you have the authority to forgive a Christian if he sins.

What else can I help you with this evening?

Puleeeze don't try and put words in my mouth. I have never said men forgive sins, NEVER. Your post is full of venom and really sounds very un-Christian. maybe a time of prayer would be in order for you. I won't call you a liar, but I will be a Christian and say you're mistaken, very badly mistaken. Your summation of Simon and the apostles forgiving him is really foolishness, like I said I nor any Oneness preacher I know believes men can forgive sins.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You are a liar. You keep referring to me as Trinitarian. You know I am not. That makes you a liar and on your way to hell unless you repent.

The issue being discussed in our current dialog is not the godhead, thus making your Trinitarian accusation that much more illogical. What you and I are debating is whether or not you and I have the power of remission of sins on our tongues. That question is not a trinity or oneness question.

The question at hand is whether or not you and I forgive sins or does Jesus Christ forgive sins?

By your theory a sinner could weep and repent, run into a baptismal pool screaming "Jesus I repent! I have sinned against you and you alone!! I cry out for your mercy! I believe you died for me and rose again and that you are Lord! I give all to you now", and while he is screaming these words the pastor immerses him under the water without uttering one word. The convert comes up out of the water being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues. He begins to bear fruit of righteousness. He starts winning souls left and right. He is a humble man and greatly strengthens and encourages his brethren. He later becomes a missionary shaking the nations of the world. Finally he is captured by hostile foes of the gospel and is burned alive for the testimony of Christ.

As he stands before the throne, God says, "I am sorry, but in spite of how much you loved me and I loved you, and how you selflessly gave your all for me and made me the center of everything, I must consign you to hell for eternity because when you got baptized the preacher forgot to say 'in Jesus' name'"

You essentially believe a similar scene is played out in Heaven every day many times over in the courtroom of heaven. You and many others are blasphemers and will be rejected at the judgment seat of Christ for teaching such as blasphemous doctrine.

The word "remission" in Acts 2:38 is literally translated "forgiveness" in the Greek. We are baptized "in order that" are sins can be FORGIVEN. But some of you boldly proclaim on here the act of baptism mixed with your invocations somehow "washes away sins". You are missing it! When a sinner repents and is buried with Christ, the baptism does not forgive him or take away his sins, neither do your words! Who then forgives them? JESUS DOES! This is why they are baptized, so JESUS can forgive them! And why does Jesus forgive them? Because the baptism itself was perfect? NO!! He forgives them because of their faith and repentance, because they are making him Lord!!

BTW your take on John 15:3 should embarrass YOU! HIS word is the cleansing word, not mine or yours. Furthermore you are not interpreting that verse in light of verses 1 and 2 where Jesus is speaking of purging already existing branches. You do not know how to interpret scripture.

The real question is where does a person get grounds to say baptism is not necessary just because one has faith in Christ's work, when the Bible clearly shows baptism being part of salvation?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The real question is where does a person get grounds to say baptism is not necessary just because one has faith in Christ's work, when the Bible clearly shows baptism being part of salvation?

Pastor, why are you creating a straw man? That is NOT the real question because the necessity of baptism as a step towards salvation is not even in question.

Why are some of my brothers so afraid to think a little? What is so horrifying about the possibility that God is being understanding and merciful as his people still dig out of a thousand years of catholic darkness? By the looks of it some of yall are still in catholic darkness since you think you can forgive sins like a priest.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The real question is where does a person get grounds to say baptism is not necessary just because one has faith in Christ's work, when the Bible clearly shows baptism being part of salvation?

Thank you.