Questioning the Holy Bible!!

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

The Greek word "Rhema" is translated as "the gospel" in Romans 10:8;17. In verse 8, it is called the "word of faith."

Satan attacks our faith by discrediting the Word of God in our lives. If he succeeds in that, he is hammering a stronghold of our spiritual life.

That proves that one must do his homework.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Chan

If you know that the Bible was inspired (breathed) by God, then why are you suggesting that the authors were influenced by their earthly cultures?

I believe that the epistles, since they were actually letters to specific churches, reflect the language, culture and social paradigm of the period of time in which they were written.

I seriously doubt the veracity of what you're saying here. First, there was no Roman Catholic Church in 397 A.D. Second, I'm not sure that German existed as a language in the fourth century (much less that there was a Bible translated into that language). Third, the reason they left out many books is because the authorship of many of them was spurious (people in the second and third centuries wrote the books and attributed them to well-known first century people such as Thomas and Mary Magdalene - a common practice in that day).

I got my info from a study. I'm going to have to find it for a quote.

Again, there was no Roman Catholic Church back then. Also, have you actually READ the Nicene Creed of 325 A.D. or the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 A.D.? Also, you seem to be suggesting that heretical books (such as the Gospel of Thomas) that promote gnosticism should have been included in the Bible!

All I am saying is that there are other books that were widely read amongst early christians that are not included in the canon. Consider the following letter from Athanasius of Alexandria (born ~293 CE, Alexandria -- died May 2 373 CE, Alexandria) concerning the canon of the New Testament:

The 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367 CE)

Since, however, we have spoken of the heretics as dead but of ourselves as possessors of the divine writings unto salvation, and since I am afraid that -- as Paul has written to the Corinthians [2 Cor. 11:3] -- some guileless persons may be led astray from their purity and holiness by the craftiness of certain men and begin thereafter to pay attention to other books, the so-called apocryphal writings, being deceived by their possession of the same names as the genuine books, I therefore exhort you to patience when, out of regard to the Church's need and benefit, I mention in my letter matters with which you are acquainted. It being my intention to mention these matters, I shall, for the commendation of my venture, follow the example of the evangelist Luke and say [cf. Luke 1:1-4]: Since some have taken in hand to set in order for themselves the so-called apocrypha and to mingle them with the God-inspired scripture, concerning which we have attained to a sure persuasion, according to what the original eye-witness and ministers of the word have delivered unto our fathers, I also, having been urged by true brethren and having investigated the matter from the beginning, have decided to set forth in order the writings that have been put in the canon, that have been handed down and confirmed as divine, in order that every one who has been led astray may condemn his seducers, and that every one who has remained stainless may rejoice, being again reminded of that.

Continuing, I must without hesitation mention the scriptures of the New Testament; they are the following: the four Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, after them the Acts of the Apostles and the seven so-called catholic epistles of the apostles -- namely, one of James, two of Peter, then three of John and after these one of Jude. In addition there are fourteen epistles of the apostle Paul written in the following order: the first to the Romans, then two to the Corinthians and then after these the one to the Galatians, following it the one to the Ephesians, thereafter the one to the Philippians and the one to the Colossians and two to the Thessalonians and the epistle to the Hebrews and then immediately two to Timothy , one to Titus and lastly the one to Philemon. Yet further the Revelation of John

These are the springs of salvation, in order that he who is thirsty may fully refresh himself with the words contained in them. In them alone is the doctrine of piety proclaimed. Let no one add anything to them or take anything away from them...

But for the sake of greater accuracy I add, being constrained to write, that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless.

He clearly states that there were other books that were worthy as reading material, but is dead-set against the "Apocrypha" which was apparently fabricated.

[sola gratia]

Despite what you will hear from many on here the early Catholic church, not the Roman Catholic Church, was not as some would like to assume. In the writings of the church fathers many of the canonized books are quoted in their letters and dissertations, so much so, much of the bible could be re-created based on their writings alone! While I 100% support the fact that their writings are NOT on the same level as the bible. I think they are worth reading… it gives the bible student a nice grasp on what was happening in the early church

[Felicity]

I just realized a few days ago that it was approximately 12 years after Pentecost when Cornelius' household were born again and filled with the Holy Ghost!

Originally Posted by Pianoman

I believe that the epistles, since they were actually letters to specific churches, reflect the language, culture and social paradigm of the period of time in which they were written.

But since they were inspired (breathed) by God, you can't really say the authors were influenced by the culture of the world around them in what they wrote. Did they sometimes address issues that were related to the cultures around them? Yes but that doesn't mean they were influenced by those cultures.

I got my info from a study. I'm going to have to find it for a quote.

The study is wrong. There was no Roman Catholic Church in the fourth century and it's not certain that German even existed as a language back then.

All I am saying is that there are other books that were widely read amongst early christians that are not included in the canon. Consider the following letter from Athanasius of Alexandria (born ~293 CE, Alexandria -- died May 2 373 CE, Alexandria) concerning the canon of the New Testament:

The 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367 CE)

Since, however, we have spoken of the heretics as dead but of ourselves as possessors of the divine writings unto salvation, and since I am afraid that -- as Paul has written to the Corinthians [2 Cor. 11:3] -- some guileless persons may be led astray from their purity and holiness by the craftiness of certain men and begin thereafter to pay attention to other books, the so-called apocryphal writings, being deceived by their possession of the same names as the genuine books, I therefore exhort you to patience when, out of regard to the Church's need and benefit, I mention in my letter matters with which you are acquainted. It being my intention to mention these matters, I shall, for the commendation of my venture, follow the example of the evangelist Luke and say [cf. Luke 1:1-4]: Since some have taken in hand to set in order for themselves the so-called apocrypha and to mingle them with the God-inspired scripture, concerning which we have attained to a sure persuasion, according to what the original eye-witness and ministers of the word have delivered unto our fathers, I also, having been urged by true brethren and having investigated the matter from the beginning, have decided to set forth in order the writings that have been put in the canon, that have been handed down and confirmed as divine, in order that every one who has been led astray may condemn his seducers, and that every one who has remained stainless may rejoice, being again reminded of that.

Continuing, I must without hesitation mention the scriptures of the New Testament; they are the following: the four Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, after them the Acts of the Apostles and the seven so-called catholic epistles of the apostles -- namely, one of James, two of Peter, then three of John and after these one of Jude. In addition there are fourteen epistles of the apostle Paul written in the following order: the first to the Romans, then two to the Corinthians and then after these the one to the Galatians, following it the one to the Ephesians, thereafter the one to the Philippians and the one to the Colossians and two to the Thessalonians and the epistle to the Hebrews and then immediately two to Timothy , one to Titus and lastly the one to Philemon. Yet further the Revelation of John

These are the springs of salvation, in order that he who is thirsty may fully refresh himself with the words contained in them. In them alone is the doctrine of piety proclaimed. Let no one add anything to them or take anything away from them...

But for the sake of greater accuracy I add, being constrained to write, that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless.

He clearly states that there were other books that were worthy as reading material, but is dead-set against the "Apocrypha" which was apparently fabricated.

Yes, there were other books that people were reading; that doesn't mean those books should be considered scripture - particularly the books of questionable authorship.

SOURCE The first official meeting of churches which listed the twenty-seven books of the New Testament was the Synod of Hippo in 393. It did not confer upon them any authority, but simply recorded their previously established canonicity. The Third Synod of Carthage reaffirmed the Hippo decision in 397. The earliest know confirmation of this list by a Bishop of Rome comes from Pope Innocent in 405.

The Synod of Carthage used three criteria in recognizing books as part of the New Testament canon:

1. Was the book prepared by an apostle or under the direction of an apostle? (Ephesians 2:20; John 16:13).
2. Was the book used and recognized by the churches? (John 10:4).
3. Did the book teach sound doctrine as compared with books that were already accepted as Scripture? (1 Corinthians 14:29).

For more information: http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-of-Scripture.html

[StillStanding]

An interesting early opinion of the "Gospel of the Egyptians":

Epiphanius, Heresy lxii. 2 (Sabellians). Their whole deceit (error) and the strength of it they draw from some apocryphal books, especially from what is called the Egyptian Gospel, to which some have given that name. For in it many suchlike things are recorded (or attributed) as from the person of the Saviour, said in a corner, purporting that he showed his disciples that the same person was Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Maybe the Egyptian Gospel backed up the "Oneness" position!!

Originally Posted by Pianoman

An interesting early opinion of the "Gospel of the Egyptians":



Maybe the Egyptian Gospel backed up the "Oneness" position!!

What is your source for this information?

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Chan

What is your source for this information?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...egyptians.html

[StillStanding]

OK...Here's a historical list of New Testament books approved as canon:

Catalogue inserted in Codex Claromontanus (300 CE)
[An Old Testament list is followed by:]
Four Gospels:
Matthew 2600 lines
John 2000 lines
Mark 1600 lines
Luke 2900 lines
Epistles of Paul:
To the Romans 1040 lines
The First to the Corinthians 1060 lines
The Second to the Corinthians 70 (sic) lines
To the Galatians 350 lines
To the Ephesians 365 lines
[three lines seem to have fallen out
here; Philippians, I Thessalonians
and II Thessalonians are missing]
The First to Timothy 209 lines
The Second to Timothy 289 lines
To Titus 140 lines
To the Colossians 251 lines
To Philemon 50 lines
– The First to (sic) Peter 200 lines
The Second to (sic) Peter 140 lines
Of James 220
The First Epistle of John 220
The Second Epistle of John 20
The Third Epistle of John 20
The Epistle of Jude 60 lines
– Epistle of Barnabas
850 lines
The Revelation of John 1200
The Acts of the Apostles 2600
– The Shepherd
4000 lines
– The Acts of Paul
3650 lines
– The Apocalypse of Peter
270


The Canon of Cyril of Jerusalem (318-386 CE)

Then of the New Testament there are four Gospels only, for the rest have false titles and are harmful. The Manicheans also wrote a Gospel according to Thomas, which being smeared with the fragrance of the name 'Gospel' destroys the souls of those who are rather simple-minded. Receive also the Acts of the Twelve Apostles; and in addition to these the seven Catholic Epistles of James, Peter, John, and Jude; and as a seal upon them all, and the latest work of disciples, the fourteen Epistles of Paul.
But let all the rest be put aside in a secondary rank. And whatever books are not read in the churches, do not read these even by yourself, as you have already heard [me say concerning the Old Testament apocrypha]. (4.36)


The Cheltenham Canon (330-360 CE)

Likewise the catalogue of the New Testament:
Four Gospels: Matthew, 2700 lines
Mark, 1700 lines
John, 1800 lines
Luke, 3300 lines
All the lines make 10,000 lines
Epistles of Paul, 13 in number
The Acts of the Apostles, 3600 lines
The Apocalypse, 1800 lines
Three Epistles of John, 350 lines
one only
Two Epistles of Peter, 300 lines
one only

Note the two enigmatic lines containing 'one only' (una sola). What does 'one only' mean?

The words look like the expression of two opinions on the list. The writer appears to have been of reactionary opinions, for he omits Hebrews and Jude as well as James. As to the notation of the Johannine and Petrine Epistles, the explanation is probably as follows. The writer copied the first and third lines from some earlier list, but he himself thought that only I John and I Peter were Scripture, and therefore added in each case 'one only'. Why did he then write 'Three Epistles of John' and 'Two Epistles of Peter'. The reason lay in the number of stichoi lines, binding I, II, and III John together as a unit, and I and II Peter as a unit. Since he could not tell precisely how many stichoi were to be subtracted if he omitted II and III John and II Peter, he was, so to speak, forced to copy the lines preceding 'one only' as units. But by adding the words 'one only' he was able to express his own opinion that the shorter Epistles were not to be reckoned as canonical.

[StillStanding]

continued.....

The Canon approved by the Synod of Laodicea (~363 CE)

Canon 60. [After listing the books of the Old Testament] And these are the books of the New Testament: four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles, seven Catholic epistles, namely, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude, fourteen epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.
Note: Revelation of John is omitted

The Canon approved by the 'Apostolic Canons' (~380 CE)

Canon 85. Let the following books be esteemed venerable and holy by all of you, both clergy and laity. [A list of books of the Old Testament ...] And our sacred books, that is, of the New Testament, are the four Gospels, of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter; three of John; one of James; one of Jude; two Epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to you, the bishops, by me, Clement, in eight books, which is not appropriate to make public before all, because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us, the Apostles.
Note the omission of the Revelation of John and the addition of the two epistles of Clement.

The Canon of Gregory of Nazianus (329-389 CE)
[List of books of the Old Testament ...]
But now count also [the books] of the New Mystery;
Matthew indeed wrote for the Hebrews the wonderful works of Christ,
And mark for Italy, Luke for Greece,
John, the great preacher, for all, walking in heaven.
Then the Acts of the wise apostles,
And fourteen Epistles of Paul,
And seven Catholic [Epistles], of which James is one,
Two of Peter, three of John again.
And Jude's is the seventh, You have all.
If there is any besides these, it is not among the genuine [books].
Concerning the Old Testament, he agrees with Athanasius, but concerning the New Testament he differs by placing the Catholic Epistles after the Pauline Epistles and, more significantly, in omitting the Revelation of John.

The Canon of Amphilochius of Iconium (after 394 CE)
[List of books of the Old Testament ...]
It is time for me to speak of the books of the New Testament.
Receive only four evangelists:
Matthew, then Mark, to whom, having added Luke
As third, count John as fourth in time,
But first in height of teachings,
For I call this one rightly a son of thunder,
Sounding out most greatly with the word of God.
And receive also the second book of Luke,
That of the catholic Acts of the Apostles.
Add next the chosen vessel,
The herald of the Gentiles, the apostle
Paul, having written wisely to the churches
Twice seven Epistles: to the Romans one,
To which one must add two to the Corinthians,
That to the Galatians, and that to the Ephesians, after which
That in Philippi, then the one written
To the Colassians, two to the Thessalonians,
Two to Timothy, and to Titus and the Philemon,
One each, and one to the Hebrews.
But some say the one to the Hebrews is spurious,
not saying well, for the grace is genuine.
Well, what remains? Of the Catholic Epistles
Some say we must receive seven, but others say
Only three should be received -- that of James, one,
And one of Peter, and those of John, one.
And some receive three [of John], and besides these, two
of Peter, and that of Jude a seventh.
And again the Revelation of John,
Some approve, but the most
Say it is spurious, This is
Perhaps the most reliable (lit. most unfalsified)
canon of the divinely inspired Scriptures.

Amphilochius reports some of the earlier debate concerning Hebrews, the Catholic Epistles, and the Revelation of John. In fact, not only does he report the doubts of others concerning these books, but he himself appears to reject II Peter, II and III John, and Jude, and almost certainly rejects Revelation of John. The most curious feature is that, having thus stated doubts as to the right of several books to be included in the sacred collection, the author ends with the incredible phrase:

The Canon approved by the third Synod of Carthage (397 CE)

Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: [then follows a list of Old Testament books]. The [books of the] New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the Epistles of Paul, thirteen; of the same to the Hebrews; one Epistle; of Peter, two; of John, apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the transmarine Church shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read.

This is the current list of books in our New Testament.