Forgiveness or Remission?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by james34

You can’t explain it any other way. Cornelius was added to the church. It doesn’t bother me that I copy and pasted . I was not trying to hide it lol ( I didn’t care) A 5 year old would have recognized it was copied. Lol Good detective work there Sherlock!!! I changed the words to fit the discussion and represent the idea I was trying to express.

I am going to copy and paste some more from the debate on this forum about forgiveness and remission.between SDG or whoever it was.


Seriously, was Cornelius not forgiven of his sins?

Why would we think plagiarism bothers the plagiarist?

Also, this is a forum, and we interact through "reading" each others' material. When you're quoting an article which isn't in the form of how you normally post, we can see that. No real Sherlock Holmesim, but just picking out where someone goes from posting like Jed Clampett to sounding like John Milton. Also you must state your sources. Biggest reason in my opinion is that you may quote an article out of context. If we quote our sources we are giving the chance for all to review the original article without bias of the one who quoted it.

[james34]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Why would we think plagiarism bothers the plagiarist?

Also, this is a forum, and we interact through "reading" each others' material. When you're quoting an article which isn't in the form of how you normally post, we can see that. No real Sherlock Holmesim, but just picking out where someone goes from posting like Jed Clampett to sounding like John Milton. Also you must state your sources. Biggest reason in my opinion is that you may quote an article out of context. If we quote our sources we are giving the chance for all to review the original article without bias of the one who quoted it.

Like I said, I thought it was pretty obvious that it didn’t fit my normal way of writing , I could’ve changed the whole thing . I chose not to, that wasn’t my point. But if I had known that it would be so triggering to some I absolutely would’ve put a link and the source, for me someone knowing my source changes nothing.
The only thing the point of this plagiarism serves, is to avoid the actual discussion about the sins of the house of Cornelius once they receive the Holy Ghost.
as far as the Jed Clampett remark, The Bible does say that God chose the foolish things to confound the wise, and assuming that Jed Clampett was the lowest form of insult you could think of ….You must be very confounded!

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

According to this line of reasoning, Cornelius and company could not receive the Holy Ghost unless they were "cleansed". Since they received the Holy Ghost before being baptised, they were cleansed before being baptised. Since cleansing (according to this line of reasoning) is equivalent to having sins forgiven, they had their sins forgiven prior to being baptised.

So, James, I have a few questions for you.

1. When were they cleansed? When did they receive forgiveness of sins? Peter preached the Gospel, and while he was still speaking they all got the Holy ghost. There was no altar call, there was no "decision", no "public profession of Christ", no "season of prayer". So when did they receive forgiveness of sins? When were they "cleansed"?

2. Before this meeting, Peter was given a vision of all sorts of animals, and told to kill and eat them. He said he would not eat that which was unclean or common, and was told "Do not call common what God has cleansed". This of course had nothing to do with hamhocks and shrimp gumbo, but everything to do with gentiles being preached to:

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
(Act 10:28)

So apparently Cornelius and the gentiles were cleansed before Peter ever preached the Gospel to them? How is this possible? Do you believe people are cleansed before even hearing the Gospel?

Or is it possible you have mistaken ideas about all this stuff?

I personally believe in the elect. God knows who are his before we ever know it. That doesn’t mean that our freewill isn’t part of the process. Instead our actions bear out what God already knows. It is difficult for the finite to understand the infinite.

[Esaias]

I guess no bible studies will be forthcoming?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by james34

Like I said, I thought it was pretty obvious that it didn’t fit my normal way of writing , I could’ve changed the whole thing . I chose not to, that wasn’t my point. But if I had known that it would be so triggering to some I absolutely would’ve put a link and the source, for me someone knowing my source changes nothing.
The only thing the point of this plagiarism serves, is to avoid the actual discussion about the sins of the house of Cornelius once they receive the Holy Ghost.
as far as the Jed Clampett remark, The Bible does say that God chose the foolish things to confound the wise, and assuming that Jed Clampett was the lowest form of insult you could think of ….You must be very confounded!

I said "someone"

Reread my post.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I personally believe in the elect. God knows who are his before we ever know it. That doesn’t mean that our freewill isn’t part of the process. Instead our actions bear out what God already knows. It is difficult for the finite to understand the infinite.

I can see this rabbit trailing.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Before we go any further, forgiveness and remission are the same words in Greek,

[james34]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I said "someone"

Reread my post.

Wat you ain’t sum1? You shor seem da no wut sum1 wud b thankn.

[good samaritan]

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven before baptism?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

This man's sins where forgiven after Jesus saw "their" faith not after his baptism. Note: The use of "their" demonstrates that all who where involved in this scenario had faith, but the crippled man's faith would seem to be a part of that company. Nevertheless, the key to forgiveness was associated with faith with no mention of baptism.

Jesus went about forgiving sins without any sacraments. Freely forgave with only one condition. Faith!!! We receive forgiveness upon putting our faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. True faith and repentance goes hand in hand.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was declared righteous for his faith in God. The only way to be righteous is to be forgiven and the only way to be forgiven is by the blood. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of Sins.

Note: It doesn't say Abraham was righteous by circumcision. Instead, only because he believed God. Abraham's true belief caused him to live a life of obedience. Circumcision was a major deal for an adult who lived in times before modern medical practice. His faith was not easy believism, but it was genuine.

God has not changed his methods, they have been the same from the beginning. We must put our faith in God to become his children.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This next part I have been trying to use caution, because baptism is definitely a part of our conversion. We cannot forgo baptism.

Now in regarding the sacraments of baptism.

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

After believing the word, the believers response was immediate. They where pricked in their hearts (convicted) and asked what they must do?

True faith is going to be followed by immediate obedience. Faith that does not result in repentance, is not faith.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Repentance and baptism are the response to our faith. Yeeesssss, they are necessary!!! It is not my intent at all, to devalue our downplay the necessity of water baptism. Faith requires obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 28:18-20
18......And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19......Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20......Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus said to spread this message to all nations and to baptize them in His name. That is exactly what Peter did.

Acts 2:38-39
38......Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39......For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism is part of the obedience that is necessary of our Faith. The question: is it the sacrament itself that works unto salvation or is it our faith. May persuasion is that it is our faith.

I personally believe baptism was instituted more for our benefit than for anything else.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is symbolic of the spiritual work that God is doing. Therefore we must obey, but the act of forgiveness and remission is entirely up to God. We don’t force forgiveness by sacraments. We receive forgiveness by faith that is proven by the works that follow.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In a nutshell we are probably not even in disagreement on the issue, but simply have a difference of faith explanation.

That leads to another question:

Can a person be saved without baptism?

Let me answer that with a question:

If we put our faith in Jesus as our Lord and savior, must we obey?

Yes, of course.

In the case of deathbed conversions, that is Gods decision. He is the one we will all stand before.

Forgiveness/remission is received the moment you put your faith in Jesus followed by repentance and baptism.

In another post someone asked the question: "when is the blood applied?"

The blood was applied from Calvary 2,000 years ago. We are only recipient of its benefit by putting our faith in that blood sacrifice of Jesus.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Before we go any further, forgiveness and remission are the same words in Greek,

I am in agreement.