Chris Reed

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Also, we KNOW IN PART and PROPHESY IN PART.

1 Corinthians 13:9.. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1 Corinthians 13:12.. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Jesus did not do so in PART like we do.

But if these things ought not be done, that defies Jesus' words after having told the woman at the well how many husbands she had, and telling Nathanael where he was before Philip came to him, saying these things shall ye do and greater.

All the more reason to be skeptical, brother. If we only know and prophesy in part, and there is only a short record of the Lord Jesus ever doing the above, then when someone stands up among the believers and begins doing the self-same thing hundreds of times, or more, in their life and ministry, it beleaguers the Christian to accept it as truly being from God.

Jeremiah prophesied for 33 years, and if my count is accurate, he wrote that the Word of the Lord only came to him a total of about 35 times. So, just barely more than once per year on average. It's food for thought when it comes to someone's spiritual gifting.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

All the more reason to be skeptical, brother. If we only know and prophesy in part, and there is only a short record of the Lord Jesus ever doing the above, then when someone stands up among the believers and begins doing the self-same thing hundreds of times, or more, in their life and ministry, it beleaguers the Christian to accept it as truly being from God.

Jeremiah prophesied for 33 years, and if my count is accurate, he wrote that the Word of the Lord only came to him a total of about 35 times. So, just barely more than once per year on average. It's food for thought when it comes to someone's spiritual gifting.

I agree. Nothing wrong with trying the spirits of any situation.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

All the more reason to be skeptical, brother. If we only know and prophesy in part, and there is only a short record of the Lord Jesus ever doing the above, then when someone stands up among the believers and begins doing the self-same thing hundreds of times, or more, in their life and ministry, it beleaguers the Christian to accept it as truly being from God.

Jeremiah prophesied for 33 years, and if my count is accurate, he wrote that the Word of the Lord only came to him a total of about 35 times. So, just barely more than once per year on average. It's food for thought when it comes to someone's spiritual gifting.

I agree with trying the spirits, but would we want to compare the “greater things than these will you do” New Testament gifts with the limitations of Jeremiah? Why limit the NT believers?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. Nothing wrong with trying the spirits of any situation.

And if you and others have tried his spirit and find him to be of the Lord, as said before, don't apologize, regardless of the AFF critics.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree with trying the spirits, but would we want to compare the “greater things than these will you do” New Testament gifts with the limitations of Jeremiah? Why limit the NT believers?

I wasn't trying to make a full-on comparison, just offering a point of view to consider.

As far as John 14:12 and the affirmation of "greater works than these will you do", we have to define our terms. Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?

Another question to consider is, did Jesus mean that word to apply to all believers everywhere, or specifically to the apostles with whom He was, at the moment, conversing?

For example, in Acts and the Epistles, the idea of signs and wonders and divers miracles is almost universally associated with apostles, the only exception being two deacons, Stephen and Philip (See: Acts 2:42, 5:12, 14:3, Romans 15:12 & 19, 2 Corinthians 12:12, and Hebrews 2:4).

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I wasn't trying to make a full-on comparison, just offering a point of view to consider.

As far as John 14:12 and the affirmation of "greater works than these will you do", we have to define our terms. Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?

Another question to consider is, did Jesus mean that word to apply to all believers everywhere, or specifically to the apostles with whom He was, at the moment, conversing?

For example, in Acts and the Epistles, the idea of signs and wonders and divers miracles is almost universally associated with apostles, the only exception being two deacons, Stephen and Philip (See: Acts 2:42, 5:12, 14:3, Romans 15:12 & 19, 2 Corinthians 12:12, and Hebrews 2:4).

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 cor 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I wasn't trying to make a full-on comparison, just offering a point of view to consider.

As far as John 14:12 and the affirmation of "greater works than these will you do", we have to define our terms. Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?

Another question to consider is, did Jesus mean that word to apply to all believers everywhere, or specifically to the apostles with whom He was, at the moment, conversing?

For example, in Acts and the Epistles, the idea of signs and wonders and divers miracles is almost universally associated with apostles, the only exception being two deacons, Stephen and Philip (See: Acts 2:42, 5:12, 14:3, Romans 15:12 & 19, 2 Corinthians 12:12, and Hebrews 2:4).

You sound a bit like a Jehovah's Witness. I Corinthians 13:8.

Jesus speaks to His Disciples a good while in John 13-17.

I am struck with what He says in John 14:12 "He who believes in me..."

Is He speaking only to the Apostles here? I think not.

John 17:20 makes that apparent - "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they may believe that you sent Me."

The whole premise of John 13-17 is that Jesus and the Father are one, making Jesus God. Secondly, that He will send the Comforter who will abide with us forever. He identifies that Comforter as Himself - John 14:18 " I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you."

John 15:4 "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me."

Notice that in Philippians 1:10-11, Paul and Timothy are addressing the "saints" who are in Philippi - "...(11)being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

Now, notice the example Jesus sets in John 5:20 " For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel."

He turns around and conveys that upon all those who believe - John 14:12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with my Father."

The conclusion - we see in John 13-17 that Jesus was NOT speaking only to His Disciples and therefore, greater things are passed to those who believe the Word and are filled with His Spirit.

Of course, we can get into "obeying" the Word, which is where our faith takes us. But, I don't think it is necessary, as we all understand that.

I am remembering Bishop Jack Cunningham who spoke at the last Youth Conference. He said, words to effect, "You wonder about these men and women of God who have done great things. Well, I can tell you that they didn't sit around binging on The Office."

That comment tells us where the problem lies in carrying out "greater things than these" - it is about commitment.

I am sure that when Brother Bernard's FIL died during their church service and was raised from the dead, as one example most everyone is aware of, he wasn't scratching his head thinking: "Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?"

No, he didn't stop and ask those questions, He responded under the direction and unction of the Spirit and his FIL was raised up. Hallelujah!

All of the scriptures you quoted at the end of your comments only tell me that the Disciples are teaching us, by example as did Jesus Christ.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 cor 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Succinct!

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree with trying the spirits, but would we want to compare the “greater things than these will you do” New Testament gifts with the limitations of Jeremiah? Why limit the NT believers?

John 14:12 KJVS
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I completely agree with you Sis. This is a promise to those that believe in him.

[mfblume]

I claim that the teaching of the gifts is so lacking among many apostolics that there is a lack of the gifts, themselves. Not saying I am not in need of learning, or I would be operating more myself.