The Present reign of Jesus Christ

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I just want to add that we are not seated and reigning with Christ. What Ephesians says is that we are:

[Eph 2:6-7 NKJV] 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

Notice that it says "in", not "with".

7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Notice that it uses the phrase "ages to come", which Jesus identifies with the resurrection in Mar 10:30 and Luk 18:30. And then it says "show the exceeding riches of His grace". So the Ephesians hadn't received grace yet?, No, but Paul was talking about the future resurrection and glory to come, where the grace of God is going to be shown on us in the resurrection and the coming revelation of his glory.

If we have eternal life in Christ, then we have eternal life with Christ. If we are enthroned in heavenly places in Christ, then we are enthroned with Him. Thus, if we reign in Him, we reign with Him. Same thing viewed from a slightly different (grammatical) perspective (in vs with).

We are in Christ, therefore we are buried WITH Him and raised up WITH Him. Why? Because IN Him we have been buried, and IN Him we have been raised. We have what we have "with" Him by virtue of being placed IN Him. The in and with are terms denoting identification.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If we have eternal life in Christ, then we have eternal life with Christ. If we are enthroned in heavenly places in Christ, then we are enthroned with Him. Thus, if we reign in Him, we reign with Him. Same thing viewed from a slightly different (grammatical) perspective (in vs with).

We are in Christ, therefore we are buried WITH Him and raised up WITH Him. Why? Because IN Him we have been buried, and IN Him we have been raised. We have what we have "with" Him by virtue of being placed IN Him. The in and with are terms denoting identification.

Idk brother, argue with Paul for not using "with" instead of "in" , I didn't write that.

I guess Paul used "in" to put the emphasis that we were seated in heavenly places by God thanks to, or by the means of the Christ according to the verses before; and that we have dominion over the darkness in the heavenly places (Eph 6:12). Spiritual warfare in the heavenly places is a dominant theme in Ephesians: that's how it starts Eph 1:3 and how it ends Eph 6:10-20.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Idk brother, argue with Paul for not using "with" instead of "in" :), I didn't write that.

I guess Paul used "in" to put the emphasis that we were seated in heavenly places by God thanks to, or by the means of the Christ according to the verses before; and that we have dominion over the darkness in the heavenly places (Eph 6:12). Spiritual warfare in the heavenly places is a dominant theme in Ephesians: that's how it starts Eph 1:3 and how it ends Eph 6:10-20.

I'm not trying to argue with Paul, just pointing out that if we are seated IN Christ then we must necessarily be seated WITH Christ.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians:2:4

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians:2:5

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians:2:6

We were quickened (made alive) TOGETHER WITH Christ... We were raised up (made alive) and seated TOGETHER (with each other and with Christ) IN Christ. The two prepositions with and in are used to express essentially the same thing: our participation in (with!) Christ's resurrection and enthronement. We participate in Christ, and therefore participate with Christ.

Note: the Greek doesn't have any preposition for "with" in v 5, with is necessarily supplied by the translators to express the grammatical case for "Christ Jesus" .

[diakonos]

Idk brother, argue with Paul for not using "with" instead of "in"

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If we have eternal life in Christ, then we have eternal life with Christ. If we are enthroned in heavenly places in Christ, then we are enthroned with Him. Thus, if we reign in Him, we reign with Him. Same thing viewed from a slightly different (grammatical) perspective (in vs with).

We are in Christ, therefore we are buried WITH Him and raised up WITH Him. Why? Because IN Him we have been buried, and IN Him we have been raised. We have what we have "with" Him by virtue of being placed IN Him. The in and with are terms denoting identification.

What we have IN CHRIST at the present time is an "earnest". It is a down payment or "pledge" of what we will receive in the future resurrection.

Ephesians 1:13-14

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Romans 8:18-23

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

2 Cor. 5:4-5

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Now we know why we have not yet conquered the nations, neither rule over them with a rod of iron.

We have only the FORETASTE of the power that is yet to come. Yes it is wonderful to walk in the "earnest" or "foretaste". But it is only that. A small part of the whole.

Hebrews 6:4-6......Take special note of verse 5.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

We have TASTED of the powers of the world to come. We can be overcomers now. We can experience some of the glory now. There is much greater glory coming. We must reach for all we can get right now.

Yet it is glorious to realize when Jesus comes in the resurrection the nations will LITERALLY be taken over and ruled by Christ and the saints!

Rev. 2:26

26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

[phareztamar]

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

What we have IN CHRIST at the present time is an "earnest". It is a down payment or "pledge" of what we will receive in the future resurrection.

Ephesians 1:13-14

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Romans 8:18-23

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

2 Cor. 5:4-5

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Now we know why we have not yet conquered the nations, neither rule over them with a rod of iron.

We have only the FORETASTE of the power that is yet to come. Yes it is wonderful to walk in the "earnest" or "foretaste". But it is only that. A small part of the whole.

Hebrews 6:4-6......Take special note of verse 5.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

We have TASTED of the powers of the world to come. We can be overcomers now. We can experience some of the glory now. There is much greater glory coming. We must reach for all we can get right now.

Yet it is glorious to realize when Jesus comes in the resurrection the nations will LITERALLY be taken over and ruled by Christ and the saints!

Rev. 2:26

26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Nothing you said here contradicts anything I've said on this (or any other) thread, except that your emphasis is on "what we can't do now" while mine is on "what we are supposed to be doing now."

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nothing you said here contradicts anything I've said on this (or any other) thread, except that your emphasis is on "what we can't do now" while mine is on "what we are supposed to be doing now."

Allow me to explain. We have been given a down payment on what we are going to eventually receive. What is that down payment? Sufficient capital to disciple the nations. Assuming we utilise that capital property, we will get to enjoy the whole shebang - a world free of sin, evil, sadness, sickness, death, etc, for ever. That's MY emphasis.

You however seem to object to this point of view and are very concerned that nobody get carried away thinking too positively, as that might result in Christianity becomong something MORE than just a course in personal improvement.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Allow me to explain. We have been given a down payment on what we are going to eventually receive. What is that down payment? Sufficient capital to disciple the nations. Assuming we utilise that capital property, we will get to enjoy the whole shebang - a world free of sin, evil, sadness, sickness, death, etc, for ever. That's MY emphasis.

You however seem to object to this point of view and are very concerned that nobody get carried away thinking too positively, as that might result in Christianity becomong something MORE than just a course in personal improvement.

Remember, neither Caesar nor antichrist cares one whit how personally spiritually advanced you become, as long as it doesn't interrupt their income stream from compliant consumers...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I just want to add that we are not seated and reigning with Christ. What Ephesians says is that we are:

[Eph 2:6-7 NKJV] 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

Notice that it says "in", not "with".

Somehow Paul connects the fact that we are seated in heavenly places now with the following verse.

7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Notice that it uses the phrase "ages to come", which Jesus identifies with the resurrection in Mar 10:30 and Luk 18:30. And then it says "show the exceeding riches of His grace". So the Ephesians hadn't received grace yet?, No, but Paul was talking about the future resurrection and glory to come, where the grace of God is going to be shown on us in the resurrection and the coming revelation of his glory.

Jesus is seated over every name that is named in this age and the age to come. That's a position of Dominion and kingship. Ephesians 1 says that God raised Christ up from the dead and put them at his own right hand in the Heavenly places overall Authority. That's kingship. That fulfills Psalm 110 verse 1. That psalm said, the Lord said unto my Lord sit down at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool. That's kingship. That's why I psalm 110 verse 2 says that he would rule in the midst of his enemies.

Ephesians 1 shows that The Prophecy of the Messiah ruling as king of kings and Psalm 110 is now taking place. It's talking about him ruling as king until his enemies are made his footstool. To say that this Kingdom starts after the resurrection, is totally backwards and upside down. Even 1st Corinthians 15, when the talks about the resurrection, quotes Psalm 110. And they're Paul stated that Jesus must rule until his enemies are made his footstool, with the last one being death at the resurrection. He doesn't begin ruling at the resurrection, he rules up until that point.

And so, if Ephesians 1 is talking about Jesus sitting on the throne of the right hand, and then chapter 2 says that were seated together with him. Then we are ruling with Christ.

People always get confused and they don't notice the word until in Psalm 110 verse 1. Again, Ephesians 1 said that Psalm 110 verse 1 was fulfilled When Jesus ascended.

Not only that, but Ephesians 1 says that he's ruling over everything in this age and the age to come. Already!