1000 year reign

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Brother Blume,
You are correct when you state that "Upholding Our Future Hope" does give the false impression that the PP's do not believe in a future hope.

I did read the book, so I know.

I think the reason for that is - they believe that ALL PP's will eventually become FP's. I know that you don't agree with that, but that is my understanding on the subject.

Oh, right. You once mentioned that. Yes, they are thinking of PP's going FP. I can never in amillion years see that in my case, since I am so strong on ensuring we handle 1 Cor 15 correct in the physical resurrection issue, which FP's deny.

But it is really unfair to judge someone over what THEY MIGHT BECOME and not what they are right now. There are enough PP's out there who decry FP so strongly that they call it "heretical preterism." But since there were many apostolics who went to PP then to FP, that they thought that is the trend. WRONG! I claim the PP's who went FP simply took a good thing way too far, and got away from explicit teaching in the bible into surmisings.

You see, anyone can go off tangent from where they presently are. But why single out the PP's due to the trend of some PP's going FP? It is wrong wrong wrong.

BTW, I am enjoying reading your book, which you have pictured in your avatar! If I have any questions I'll let you know. Thanks for sending it and autographing it. I might decide to sell it on E-bay!

Oh, I am flattered.

Hope you enjoy it.

[Michael The Disciple]

Bro. Blume,

You said:

The scriptures do teach this:


Quote:
Eph 1:18-22 KJV The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, (19) And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, (20) Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (21) Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: (22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Eph 2:5-6 KJV Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Chirst is over ALL NAMES IN THIS WORLD AND THE WORLD TO COME. And also WE ARE SEATED WITH HIM Over these things. Look what it says we're over:


Quote:
...all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come

Me:

Michael this does NOT SAY that we rule nations NOW. Yes it says we are seated with Christ now but it does not say we reign over nations. This is what you need to understand.

You said "we reign in life now".

How do you interpet that?

Consider the life of Jesus. The ultimate overcomer. The "pattern son". He healed. He cast out demons. He did astounding miracles. He was led by the Spirit. He overcame sin.

Yet what nations did he rule? Israel? No they delivered him up to be CRUCIFIED. They said "we have no king but Ceaser".
Did he bring the Gentile nations under subjection?

How about Rome? Did the Romans accept him as the Lord God of Heaven? Nope. They hung him on a cross between thieves.

Truth is it was not time for him to rule the nations. Oh yes he can certainly OVER RULE nations as needed. But there is a FUTURE TIME for him to literally rule nations. And there is literally a time for US to rule WITH HIM.

25: But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev. 2:25-27.

Ruling over spirits and diseases and sin in this life prepares one to be a ruler in the next.

Thats why when Jesus spoke to literal Churches in Revelation he made the promise to them that if they overcome and keep his works TO THE END....THEN they would be given a rod of iron to rule nations.

So no I dont believe what you are promising saints in this life.

Again I point to an Apostle. I believe Apostles have a greater anointing than your average Saint. Paul is the one who wrote that we reign in life and sit in Heavenly places in Christ.

Did he rule nations? Consider his doctrine:

33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 8:33-39

Notice the life he lays out to the Christian. Notice verse 34 where he says Christ is on the right hand of God. Well SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING Paul believed that. Yet as to the Earthly life he presents persecution,famine, nakedness, sword, tribulation, and DEATH as lambs led to slaughter!

So how are we reigning in THIS LIFE?

By refusing to bow our knees to the prince of THIS WORLD! We are ruling in our spirit man and being trained and matured for the WORLD TO COME!

How do we know it is for the WORLD TO COME?

18: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

The more I read scripture the clearer it becomes. OVERCOMERS in this life RULERS OF NATIONS in the next!

I hope this helps.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Me:

Michael this does NOT SAY that we rule nations NOW. Yes it says we are seated with Christ now but it does not say we reign over nations. This is what you need to understand.

Brother, I have studied and studied these verses out for years, and noted that they teach a place of dominion. Being seated OVER every name that is named, NOT ONLY IN THIS WORLD, but the world to come, emphasizes a position of authority. Names are authorities. And in the world to come, you agree there is kingship. Well, it is so in this world, too.

ARE WE OVER EVERY NAME OR NOT????

What does NAME mean in that context? EVERY name is covered, brother. But you will miss it if you look for wooden thrones and metal crowns.

You said "we reign in life now".

How do you interpet that?

I told you. We have power over sickness, demons, and can pray to topple world powers. Brother, if the saints before the cross DID THAT, and topple kingdoms, do you think we can do less with the Holy Ghost?

Heb 11:33 KJV Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

You make it out that we have less in world influence than those before the cross, and that we must wait til after the rapture, all the while the power is our's now and today. If the devil can get us to throw it in to the past or into the future, anywhere but NOW, he has it made.

I mean, how much can we avoid the issue? Paul said WE REIGN IN LIFE, and we're seated with him over all names in this world and the world to come.

If we are over all in this world now, and in the world to come, and we cannot rule now, then we cannot rule in the future. It's the same position.

Consider the life of Jesus. The ultimate overcomer. The "pattern son". He healed. He cast out demons. He did astounding miracles. He was led by the Spirit. He overcame sin.

Yet what nations did he rule? Israel? No they delivered him up to be CRUCIFIED. They said "we have no king but Caesar".

Brother. This was necessary for salvation. But He is on the throne now. And we are seated with Him. Things changed, EVEN FOR HIM at the resurrection.

Truth is it was not time for him to rule the nations. Oh yes he can certainly OVER RULE nations as needed. But there is a FUTURE TIME for him to literally rule nations. And there is literally a time for US to rule WITH HIM.

IT IS NOW and then forevermore after the resurrection. Brother, he is there NOW on the throne. You really must get your eyes off the natural and realize what the bible says about the KINGDOM. IT IS HERE NOW. It was at hand in Jesus' day. IT CAME!

25: But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev. 2:25-27.

Ruling over spirits and diseases and sin in this life prepares one to be a ruler in the next.

The coming in Rev 2 was the coming of Mat 21:40. It is not the coming of 1 Cor 15.

Thats why when Jesus spoke to literal Churches in Revelation he made the promise to them that if they overcome and keep his works TO THE END....THEN they would be given a rod of iron to rule nations.

So no I don't believe what you are promising saints in this life.

No, you believe LESS. And yet you say I BELITTLE the kingdom! I believe we shall rule forever as well, but also we can do far more than what we're doing NOW. If anyone belittles the kingdom it is you in the here and now. I believe for MORE than your doctrine allows you. Plus I believe in all the future glory for eternity.

Again I point to an Apostle. I believe Apostles have a greater anointing than your average Saint. Paul is the one who wrote that we reign in life and sit in Heavenly places in Christ.

Did he rule nations? Consider his doctrine:

33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 8:33-39

Notice the life he lays out to the Christian. Notice verse 34 where he says Christ is on the right hand of God. Well SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING Paul believed that. Yet as to the Earthly life he presents persecution,famine, nakedness, sword, tribulation, and DEATH as lambs led to slaughter!

Who said anything different? Not I! But I am saying the church can pray down governments! The church can change the course of nations. Even the revivals of the 1700's and 1800's have DONE THAT! This does not mean we will not face persecution. I never said anything different. You really must understand my position before you state things that are moot to the facts of what I believe.

Why would you lessen what we can have today? How can that prove your doctrine? It's LESSER than what I say we can enjoy in the Spirit.

I believe scripture proves the church prayed down Nero's very death, and later the end of the Roman empire!

But never say I belittle the kingdom, when your teaching admittedly proposes we do not have THAT MUCH dominion as I claim we do.

Do you agree I propose a future hope, though?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

There is plenty of scripture for it. Here it is again.

1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Rev. 20:1-7

I have always thought this was an interesting text. According to common teaching, the resurrection has occurred 7 years prior to the "1000 years" in the rapture of the Bride. So why does it say that the 1st resurrection occurs at the binding of Satan?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I have always thought this was an interesting text. According to common teaching, the resurrection has occurred 7 years prior to the "1000 years" in the rapture of the Bride. So why does it say that the 1st resurrection occurs at the binding of Satan?

Because the first resurrection and the post trib rapture are one and the same event.

[Michael The Disciple]

Michael Blume said:

Who said anything different? Not I! But I am saying the church can pray down governments! The church can change the course of nations. Even the revivals of the 1700's and 1800's have DONE THAT!

Me:

Thats what I meant about OVER RULING nations. Of course our prayers can affect the nations. That is not the same as RULING THEM.

When Paul said this:

1: Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2: Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3: Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4: If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5: I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6: But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 1 Cor. 6:1-6

He was speaking FUTURE TENSE. The Saints here have trouble settling disputes among themselves. But those WHO OVERCOME and are counted worthy of eternal life will JUDGE THE WORLD.

There is a big difference in being JUDGES over nations of people than praying for their overthrow. Or that some event may take place. In that future world to come we will judge angels!

What nations pray tell were ruled by the revival Preachers? Can you name one? What nation in their day was even walking in Acts 2:38 truth let alone the "be ye perfect" command of Yeshua?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Because the first resurrection and the post trib rapture are one and the same event.

Will anyone be saved during the 1000 years? Will anyone die??

To be honest, I doubt this "world" as we know it could hold every Christian that has lived up until today.

[Sister Alvear]

Matthew: Do you believe in the 1000 year reign? If so do you believe it is now or in the future and where do you believe it will be?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I have always thought this was an interesting text. According to common teaching, the resurrection has occurred 7 years prior to the "1000 years" in the rapture of the Bride. So why does it say that the 1st resurrection occurs at the binding of Satan?

The first resurrection is in seven PARTS that is finished at the beginning of the 1000 years. simple.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Will anyone be saved during the 1000 years? Will anyone die??

To be honest, I doubt this "world" as we know it could hold every Christian that has lived up until today.

Yes there will be people who will be converted in the 1000 yr. reign. And folks will die and be born in the 1000 yr. reign.

Plenty of room.