Have you changed?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You twist everything I say, to something I never meant, and when I clarify it you reject my clarification.

i can only point to the plantation owner here, and ask you to put yourself in the place of him in a discussion about owning slaves. You might see that it has come out in our discussions that you do not even really believe what you say you believe, but likely the only indication you will get in that state is an inability to reply to a question, because the answer is too painful--and we have reached that state of silence several times now, MB. Is it possible that i got us there by sophistry? Yes, it is. I have no absolute truth for you, like you do for me.

This manifests, from your pov, as me twisting your words, you clarifying, and me rejecting. You might bring up an instance of this, and we can put it through the fire, surrounded by witnesses; i have no problem with this ok. Paint me into a corner. Prove me wrong, for your own understanding.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

And that is a perfect example of twisting what I both believe and say. Until you realize judging is not taking a scripture like Mark 16:16, and saying whoever does not abide by what this says is lost, then we have no chat.

oh, i heartily disagree, and suspect we will have no problem cranking out 10, 60, 100 pages more chat, MB. Now, how i have twisted anything you say just now i don't quite get, it would be clearer if you quoted a snippet. And i don't have any "until you do what i tell you" statements, i'm sorry, but you might see that Mark 16:16 is for you to understand, you are the "whoever" in that verse, and Muslims don't even have Mark 16:16. See, instead of holding someone you do not know, another man's servant, to Mark 16:16, you could just as easily have held them to Gal 5:14; but you did not. You chose Mark, that your heart may be revealed, as God intended.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And another thing, I already indicated how I chatted with people like muslims and treated them respectfully and they with me, and saw them end up condemning me to hell when I said not a word about the same to them. You see, you do not understand that when people discuss things in a forum it is not the same as when dealing with people in the public. And no matter how much you think I care not what people think of my views and that I trudge all over them with offences toward them, I sincerely treat people of these religions the way I would be treated, and do not offend at all. I can believe what I believe about their souls, since the scripture clearly state how God will judge them -- showing it's HIS judgment, not mine -- but I am neither making a judgment call nor am I speaking anything offensive about what those beliefs I have are when I speak to them. What goes on in a forum is not what is said publicly before people of various religions.

so, you went and found a Muslim to judge him, and got judged yourself, surprise. 2 guys judging each other. How unique. We have already discussed this like 3 times, MB; you did not go to the Muslim to learn, you went to preach. You were not trying to understand him, you were trying to convert him. But when i tell you that you are lost, and will die in your sin if you do not change your mind, that is different, right? Do you think i am saying that in the belief that i will convert you to my pov?

Originally Posted by mfblume

My belief does not kill anyone. I have said many times, which you also rejected, that anyone who thinks to kill another person for any reason whatsoever is wrong. So when you keep pontificating these statements like you just did about how my belief kills people, it goes to show me you refuse to accept my clarifications and continue to twist my words. And it all started with your misuse of the word JUDGE, and refusal to let someone explain what they mean as you would want someone to explain what you mean if they got you wrong.

wow, i seem to have some superpower that i am not aware of, i guess...and it sure sounds to me like you and the Muslim left each other in death. Was any agreement found? Or did you in fact just reinforce why he needs to die, why the crowds of Jews demonstrating "kill them all" in Israel right now are correct?

Understand that good people are led to hypocrisy--certainly because they have a predisposition for it anyway--in stages. We say that we are against slavery, and accept "free" smartphones made by slaves who work over suicide nets. We say that we love Jesus, but balk at "Love your neighbor; this FULFILLS THE LAW." i could of course go on for pages. I did not twist your words at "Love is for the confused," MB, that is a quote ok.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Just curious... what does Mark 16:16 mean to you?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

what It means to me is that It is one of the many, many ways i am to come to know Christ. Not anyone else, me. I am "he."

He who has faith and immerses themselves in the Spirit and the fire shall be shown to have correct knowledge; but he with no faith lacks knowledge.

but i am intentionally going to an extreme there, although do you have any objections to my translation as a stand-alone? Note that a better grasp of "saved" might be illuminated in It, wherein there is no "on, or off, black or white, no in between" like we typically envision at the word "saved," which cannot be supported in Scripture anyway.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Have I changed?

my beliefs are pretty much unchanged. but I certainly have changed. I'm more interested in being happy and having good relationships with people then I am in being right these days.

I less interested in figuring out who is/isn't on their way to hell then I am in encouraging people to experience more of the love of God. Everyone is in God's hands and his loving care is good.

amen!
of course you will lose the respect of men with this, and decrease, and be considered a lunatic because you cannot prove it does you any good; in fact, the only thing that can be proven is that it does not do you any good, from a natural perspective; you have lost your mind!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

That's good. If we can first introduce people to Jesus Christ with love, when they fall in love with HIM it is then they will be willing and obedient to obey His commandments. It is not our job to police souls but rather point them to Jesus.

i suggest that far and away the best way to do this...ya, actually the only way to do this is without words.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Well, we are still waiting on Shaz to answer.

i have answered this many, many times. My answer is "what have i to do with judging another man's servant?" or iow explain to me (your) immediate personal issue with the Muslim in your orbit, and we can proceed from there; otherwise (you) are completely out of line, as a disciple of Christ. The rest of my earlier answer was strictly an attempt at apologetics for the Muslim, to make it easier for (you) to see how it might be possible that God will actually judge their hearts, although, don't get me wrong, if you believe All Muslims Are Lost, it is better to say it from the roof, be like Mike, because it is going to come out anyway.

Who am i to tell you "that is wrong?" i cannot do this. i can only tell you that it is not Christian, and that you cannot support this holistically with Scripture. But you are welcome to try, i guess.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Someone's wracking their brains for a good comeback.

ya, maybe that's it

[shazeep]

i have noticed that i can't do this later in the day, because i start to intrude as i get more tired. But i will not deny that i used to employ sophistry simply for entertainment, having been cursed with a fair amount of...articulation. If you want to condemn Muslims you have never met, personally i would proceed from child of the slave-woman.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i have answered this many, many times. My answer is "what have i to do with judging another man's servant?" or iow explain to me (your) immediate personal issue with the Muslim in your orbit, and we can proceed from there; otherwise (you) are completely out of line, as a disciple of Christ. The rest of my earlier answer was strictly an attempt at apologetics for the Muslim, to make it easier for (you) to see how it might be possible that God will actually judge their hearts, although, don't get me wrong, if you believe All Muslims Are Lost, it is better to say it from the roof, be like Mike, because it is going to come out anyway.

Who am i to tell you "that is wrong?" i cannot do this. i can only tell you that it is not Christian, and that you cannot support this holistically with Scripture. But you are welcome to try, i guess.

So, you are basically saying you don't take what the words of Jesus say literally, but water them down to fit your point of view.

Can't you see that this is a slippery slope? Can you see that this is essentially adding to, or taking away from the clear words from the mouth of Jesus?

[mfblume]

Here is a perfect example of how you twist things. Let me show you.

Originally Posted by shazeep

oh, i heartily disagree, and suspect we will have no problem cranking out 10, 60, 100 pages more chat, MB.

Nope. Done with chatting to you. Just this post will show what I mean by looking for the worst and twisting actual intentions.

Now, how i have twisted anything you say just now i don't quite get, it would be clearer if you quoted a snippet.

Snippets are all through this post to which I am responding.

And i don't have any "until you do what i tell you" statements, i'm sorry, but you might see that Mark 16:16 is for you to understand, you are the "whoever" in that verse, and Muslims don't even have Mark 16:16.

Here is a case of where I see a twisting the Word, itself. "Whoever" is not just me and not a muslim. Whoever is whoever. Literally whoever. AKA, everyone. Here is where I believe you get offkey with the word. No where does the Bible, let alone Jesus, give a disclaimer indicating that his words are only to be understood in the certain manner you propose here. Your words here remind me of a man with whom I shared the verse that says "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed," and he responded saying that was for the audience who heard it and no one else.

Now that has an air of compassion in a little odd sense. We don't want to think of people being accursed. But it is a sordid case of wresting scripture. If these statements are not broad brush strokes accounting for everyone, regardless of who directly reads them or not, then the Bible did not say that. So, what in the world would give you or anyone else the authority to say Mark 16:16 is not a blanket statement flatly stating what happens to everyone throughout the world based upon baptism and faith? What verse tells you to do that with the Word. What statement of Jesus gives you the authority to make that claim?

This is an example of wresting the word, because the Word says nary a note about such handling of it. And to read it for what it says is to realize it's a blanket statement covering every human on earth.

Now, it may seem a tad noble to try and think of HOW this verse might not be saying people are lost, but it actually betrays a desire in the person's heart, you in this case, of lack of willingness to accept instruction. When a person takes verse and does something with it that the context of the verse doesn't give one the right to do, then essentially one is not receiving instruction. And a psychologist can write a book on why certain people are like that, and make a lot of focus on what you have stated about your parents.

See, instead of holding someone you do not know, another man's servant, to Mark 16:16,

Right here is another betrayal of something in the heart.When blanket and quite objective statements are made like Mark 16:16, it is not requiring a condition of knowing the person before it is true. Mark 16:16 gives an objective statement (as opposed to subjective and personal) that does not require knowledge of a person, as though situation ethics kicks into play. I assume you know what that is, but if someone reading this doesn't, situation ethics is when what is good CHANGES under certain situations and becomes BAD, and vice versa. There is no situation ethics involved in Mark 16:16. It is a flat statement that is not only true for only those who read it, but everyone who lives since the time of the cross.

you could just as easily have held them to Gal 5:14; but you did not.

I could have held Gen 1:1 to them as well. But the point is the Word is our foundation. And it's not a variable word like you're making it out to be. And when I read those words, with a heart open to be guided and led, it caused me to think a person is lost if they have not been baptized and have not believed in Christ.

This is where the biggest judgmentalism comes into the picture -- when someone like yourself similarly takes a scripture like this, and says what you said... it is only true for those reading it, and not people of other religions... then that person has become a judge in a way that's far beyond the norm. The judgment is determine who that verse applies to when the Bible makes no restricted conditions on it applies to. So, you have made a judgment call beyond judgment calls, when you judged the subjects of the verse to be a restricted group when the word never made any such distinction..

You chose Mark, that your heart may be revealed, as God intended.
so,

Not at all. But "That'll be the day" you believe my explanation. You WANT to believe mark 16:16's restricted and is not inclusive of everyone since the cross, likely because if it isn't, there are other verses that likewise would condemn YOU. So, to avoid that condemnation of yourself in other similar scriptures, you applied a rule to them that you use with this one.

The reality is with an open heart not knowing what to believe, and open as an innocent child to learn what God wants in prayer asking Him to teach me, I read this verse and others that formed a foundation for my faith. I did not have preconceived foundation before I was presented with these foundational statements. In fact, you have a preconceived foundation for you to take verses and restrict them in your mind when in reality the word itself placed no such limitations. There is no other explanation for your claims. And when someone like me simply reads it for what it says, without a preconceived agenda to excuse their personal sin, they simply look at it and say this means if someone -- anyone-- is not a believer and baptized, they are lost. That's the bare bones approach of letting a verse say what it says, without any bias, or perverting intention in the heart.

The more you talk like this the more you reveal your heart, for only predetermined desires could even come up with the sort of stuff you come up with about Mark 16:16.

you went and found a Muslim to judge him, and got judged yourself, surprise. 2 guys judging each other.

Everything goes through a perceptual grid before it gets settled in your mind as to what it is saying. Including my words, let alone the bible's. A perceptual grid is a filter that you got from somewhere, but certainly not the bible. You alter and retranslate everything toward a hatred, which likely again goes back to your aversion of your parents. A self-proclaimed street psychologist could see that, its' so simple to recognize. And it makes you think the worst. Rather than even consider someone might be onto something when they disagree with you, your aversion to recognizing the simplicity of a statement of the narrow road to salvation causes you to make it arbitrary. Nothing in the word suggests you can do that with the Word.

T How unique. We have already discussed this like 3 times, MB; you did not go to the Muslim to learn, you went to preach.

No. I went to find out the reality of the situation. But again, you can't be told that because you've made yourself the arbiter of awareness of the intents of the heart, alongside the judge of all souls, Jesus Christ. You joined Jesus as the only two who can discern the intents of the heart, and pretend to yourself that "anyone can see it."

With your explanation, you can take ANYTHING, not matter what the actual intention is, and distort it to be what makes you right. I'm too careful with my soul to do that. One thing I pray for more than any other prayer request each day I pray is for God to correct me and ensure I am on the narrow way, and ask the Lord to not let me stray. Ask yourself when's the last time you prayed that particular request? So, any verse, any situation that someone whom you despise like me presents, you distort it to the worst.

continued..