Original Sin

[Godsdrummer]

Mike

I am glad you brought this passage up, because it is one that I think you miss part of.

When we died we are absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6-8 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Bodies, immortal or mortal alike, are earth-suits, really. If we are absent from body and present with the Lord upon death, we are in Heaven. That means we do not require bodies to be in heaven. Bodies are not made for heaven. Heaven is not a physical place where one needs a physical body to interact with it. You cannot show me a map of the physical universe and point at certain coordinates in the physical realm and say this is where Heaven is.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

We have another tabernacle one not made with hands that is eternal in the heavens.

Peter also speaks of leaving this tabernacle (body) behind at his death.

2Pe 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Where as Paul says we have another tabernacle prepared not made with hands in the heavens.

So if this body is like an earth suit for our soul, and I agree. And we have a heavenly suit, prepared for us upon our death. In which we shall for ever be with the Lord. Why would we desire to return to earth?

My thoughts, to coin your phrase. I believe the kingdom of God today is the kingdom that will last for eternity. I know that is hard for some to grasp. But we have the fulfillment of God spirit available to whosoever will. Mankind as a whole has dominion over the earth, which was never lost or taken away. We have the ability to destroy this earth, or preserve this earth.

As Christians we are to pray and actively bring the kingdom of God to earth as it is in heaven, as Christ instructed us. One the one hand Christians have gravely failed in this, for we have not been actively been involved in feeding the hungry, ministering to the sick, the orphans, widows, and homeless on the scale we are commanded to do. But on the other hand Christians have influenced the world for the better, anyone that does not see this must be blinded by the negative aspects of the world as passed down by our news media. I contend that the world is far better than we give ourselves credit for as far as the influence of Christianity in the world.

That being said, I for one believe in a eternal dwelling place with the Lord in a place we call heaven. If Jesus said thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, there must be a heaven.

As scripture says, "it is appointed unto men to die then the judgment" we all will die. But as Paul says "today judgment begins at the house of God", those in the kingdom of God have been judged already, and pass from this life to eternal life.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike

I am glad you brought this passage up, because it is one that I think you miss part of.

When we died we are absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6-8 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Bodies, immortal or mortal alike, are earth-suits, really. If we are absent from body and present with the Lord upon death, we are in Heaven. That means we do not require bodies to be in heaven. Bodies are not made for heaven. Heaven is not a physical place where one needs a physical body to interact with it. You cannot show me a map of the physical universe and point at certain coordinates in the physical realm and say this is where Heaven is.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

We have another tabernacle one not made with hands that is eternal in the heavens.

Peter also speaks of leaving this tabernacle (body) behind at his death.

2Pe 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Where as Paul says we have another tabernacle prepared not made with hands in the heavens.

So if this body is like an earth suit for our soul, and I agree. And we have a heavenly suit, prepared for us upon our death. In which we shall for ever be with the Lord. Why would we desire to return to earth?

My thoughts, to coin your phrase. I believe the kingdom of God today is the kingdom that will last for eternity. I know that is hard for some to grasp. But we have the fulfillment of God spirit available to whosoever will. Mankind as a whole has dominion over the earth, which was never lost or taken away. We have the ability to destroy this earth, or preserve this earth.

As Christians we are to pray and actively bring the kingdom of God to earth as it is in heaven, as Christ instructed us. One the one hand Christians have gravely failed in this, for we have not been actively been involved in feeding the hungry, ministering to the sick, the orphans, widows, and homeless on the scale we are commanded to do. But on the other hand Christians have influenced the world for the better, anyone that does not see this must be blinded by the negative aspects of the world as passed down by our news media. I contend that the world is far better than we give ourselves credit for as far as the influence of Christianity in the world.

That being said, I for one believe in a eternal dwelling place with the Lord in a place we call heaven. If Jesus said thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, there must be a heaven.

As scripture says, "it is appointed unto men to die then the judgment" we all will die. But as Paul says "today judgment begins at the house of God", those in the kingdom of God have been judged already, and pass from this life to eternal life.

What? Am I reading this correctly? You don't believe that this same tabernacle of flesh
will be transformed into immortality?

I believe the kingdom of the son is eternal (everlasting), because as sons and daughters we
will reign with the Lord. But it will not be in the same bodies which we now inhabit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike

I am glad you brought this passage up, because it is one that I think you miss part of.

When we died we are absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6-8 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Bodies, immortal or mortal alike, are earth-suits, really. If we are absent from body and present with the Lord upon death, we are in Heaven. That means we do not require bodies to be in heaven. Bodies are not made for heaven. Heaven is not a physical place where one needs a physical body to interact with it. You cannot show me a map of the physical universe and point at certain coordinates in the physical realm and say this is where Heaven is.

Agreed.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

And we are withou
t any body whatsoever until the resurrection. hence, we are without a body with the Lord. When we are absent from the body and with the Lord, we are absent of any body whatsoever. Therefore, the resurrection must occur, for we were not put int Heaven to rule, but on earth.

We have another tabernacle one not made with hands that is eternal in the heavens.

Peter also speaks of leaving this tabernacle (body) behind at his death.

2Pe 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Where as Paul says we have another tabernacle prepared not made with hands in the heavens.

So if this body is like an earth suit for our soul, and I agree. And we have a heavenly suit, prepared for us upon our death. In which we shall for ever be with the Lord. Why would we desire to return to earth?

The body from Heaven is not a body we get for heaven. It is a physical body just as Christ's was when he arose from the dead. It is simply saying the body from heaven is not from earth, but it's still a body.

When Paul said we're absent from the body and present with the Lord atr death he meant ANY body. We're absent of ANY body.

And the body from heaven not made with hands is the same spiritual and physical body mentioned in 1 Cor 15 that is the old earthly one changed and altered to be immortal, as Christ's was when He resurrected.

My thoughts, to coin your phrase. I believe the kingdom of God today is the kingdom that will last for eternity. I know that is hard for some to grasp. But we have the fulfillment of God spirit available to whosoever will. Mankind as a whole has dominion over the earth, which was never lost or taken away. We have the ability to destroy this earth, or preserve this earth.

It is the same Kingdom, but no where near what it shall be when the resurrection occurs. We have the EARNEST right now. By no means the fullness.

As Christians we are to pray and actively bring the kingdom of God to earth as it is in heaven, as Christ instructed us. One the one hand Christians have gravely failed in this, for we have not been actively been involved in feeding the hungry, ministering to the sick, the orphans, widows, and homeless on the scale we are commanded to do. But on the other hand Christians have influenced the world for the better, anyone that does not see this must be blinded by the negative aspects of the world as passed down by our news media. I contend that the world is far better than we give ourselves credit for as far as the influence of Christianity in the world.

That being said, I for one believe in a eternal dwelling place with the Lord in a place we call heaven. If Jesus said thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, there must be a heaven.

As scripture says, "it is appointed unto men to die then the judgment" we all will die. But as Paul says "today judgment begins at the house of God", those in the kingdom of God have been judged already, and pass from this life to eternal life.

Show me scripture where we will stay in heaven forevermore.

God made man for the earth to rule as the image of God in heaven Who rules. It is a common but false tradition to say we'll be in heaven forever. The scriptures do not teach that. God put man on the earth to rule the physical.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

What? Am I reading this correctly? You don't believe that this same tabernacle of flesh
will be transformed into immortality?

I believe the kingdom of the son is eternal (everlasting), because as sons and daughters we
will reign with the Lord. But it will not be in the same bodies which we now inhabit.

Loren has many great truths, but in this one regarding the spiritual body he is in error. My opinion, of course.

But so are you in error when you do not believe God intended for Adam to rule the earth forevermore. Again, you are not answering me, unless I missed it. Where will we spend eternity future?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Show me scripture where we will stay in heaven forevermore.

God made man for the earth to rule as the image of God in heaven Who rules. It is a common but false tradition to say we'll be in heaven forever. The scriptures do not teach that. God put man on the earth to rule the physical.

My brain is having a freeze, please show me scripture that says we will return to earth to live forevermore. In our new immortal bodies.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

My brain is having a freeze, please show me scripture that says we will return to earth to live forevermore. In our new immortal bodies.

No problem.

I actually showed it to the other brother already.

God put Adam in the earth to have dominion on it. And when Adam fell, we required salvation, or redemption. redemption is the better word since it speaks of returning back to original status. And original status was ruling in earth.

And after the fall we read these words:

Psa 115:15-16 KJV Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. (16) The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

When did He give the earth to us? When He made Adam and gave Him dominion over the earth.

Gen 1:26-28 KJV And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (28) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


After the fall the mandate was the same.

Gen 9:1-2 KJV And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. (2) And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

If our eternal destiny was to die and go to heaven and stay there forevermore, then it is not redemption. There is no return to where we fell from. We did not exist in heaven when man sinned and fell so as to require a return to heaven by salvation. We fell while ruling the earth. And the return and redemption to that position means we will rule earth forever.

That is why we read of a new heaven and NEW EARTH. Whether the earth is physical planet or like some believe the SYSTEM and PEOPLE, the fact remains God gave the earth to men to rule.

God rules Heaven. Man is his image. And we rule earth like He rules heaven.

Then we read this:

Mat 5:5 KJV Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Psa 25:13 KJV His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Psa 37:29 KJV The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Psa 37:22 KJV For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Revelation 21 speaks of no more light of the sun, etc. The same is found in Isaiah:

Isa 60:19-21 KJV The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (21) Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

That is the context of Revelation 21! We do not read that is temporary. It is forever.

Why would God temporarily return us to rule the earth? That would be temporary redemption.

And I also asked you why physical death of Jesus was necessary to pay for our sins if physical death was supposed to happen anyway, and was not part of the cruse and fall? Physical death was never meant to happen. ALL death came from SIN. Not just spiritual death. And that means Adam was never meant to die had he not sinned. God did not will for man to sin as though he created man on earth and really wanted him in heaven forever, implying living forever on earth was never His ultimate will. That is adding to the situation and to the scripture. But because we read God created man in earth to rule earth and later sin brought death both spiritual and physical, we know God meant for us to remain forever on earth ruling it.

So, again, brethren, not just Loren, where does the bible say man is going to live forever in heaven?

I contend WE WILL HAVE ACCESS TO HEAVEN, like Jesus does in his glorified spiritual and physical body, but that the body is actually meant for earth forever, and we'll primarily dwell on the earth after the resurrection.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Loren has many great truths, but in this one regarding the spiritual body he is in error. My opinion, of course.

But so are you in error when you do not believe God intended for Adam to rule the earth forevermore. Again, you are not answering me, unless I missed it. Where will we spend eternity future?

The irony of it all. Thank you though for the first statement. Concerning the second statement, do you not believe Adam (mankind) is presently ruling the world? At what point in the history of mankind have we lost dominion of the earth?

On one hand scripture states that of his kingdom there is no end, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against the kingdom of God. While the world has tried over the centuries to stamp out the kingdom of God, God's kingdom has prevailed. The kingdom of God has prevailed in ages past and will continue to grow in ages to come.

On the other hand, to say mankind does not rule the world, would in my opinion be an understatement. Mankind has tamed the most ferocious of beast, harnessed the elements, and established himself as the most dominate creature on the earth. The question should not be are we in dominion, because I believe we are. But rather will we preserve the earth for ages to come.

Concerning the Resurrection, fulfilled eschatology teachers refer to the time stamps within scripture time and time again I wonder why they do not do so concerning the resurrection. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live". Using the same principle we use when we quote, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". Was not the resurrection to happen at this same time?
For most Christians the only reason they do not believe the resurrection happened at that time is because there is not recorded a bodily resurrection that was seen.
We have a unscriptural mind set that at the resurrection these bodies are going to break out of the graves so that the world will know that the resurrection has happened. But by the very fact that some in the early church were teaching that the resurrection had already past, should led us to understand that even then the early church did not think the resurrection would be something visible.
The fact is there was a visible representation of the resurrection, after the resurrection of Christ, where many that had died rose from the grave and were seen of many.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The irony of it all. Thank you though for the first statement. Concerning the second statement, do you not believe Adam (mankind) is presently ruling the world? At what point in the history of mankind have we lost dominion of the earth?

We lost dominion in Genesis 3. Man now does not rule the earth but the earth and sin rules him. Man is ruled by PLANTS! Drugs. Man is ruled by HIS sex organs!! Lust and adultery and fornication of ever kind. Man is ruled by CIRCUMSTANCES like sickness.

Man cannot even rule his own spirit. He is not ruling the earth well at all, if at all. Nation continues to war against nation. Great dominion, Adam!

On one hand scripture states that of his kingdom there is no end, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against the kingdom of God. While the world has tried over the centuries to stamp out the kingdom of God, God's kingdom has prevailed. The kingdom of God has prevailed in ages past and will continue to grow in ages to come.

That is the interim kingdom in the spirit where we now are kings and priests... .well some believers, anyway. Kingdom-future kills that for the most. But when all is done, we shall rule the earth literally as we now gain power over sin, the flesh, devils and sickness.

On the other hand, to say mankind does not rule the world, would in my opinion be an understatement. Mankind has tamed the most ferocious of beast, harnessed the elements, and established himself as the most dominate creature on the earth. The question should not be are we in dominion, because I believe we are. But rather will we preserve the earth for ages to come.

I disagree for reasons stated above.

Concerning the Resurrection, fulfilled eschatology teachers refer to the time stamps within scripture time and time again I wonder why they do not do so concerning the resurrection. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live". Using the same principle we use when we quote, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". Was not the resurrection to happen at this same time?

For most Christians the only reason they do not believe the resurrection happened at that time is because there is not recorded a bodily resurrection that was seen.

We have a unscriptural mind set that at the resurrection these bodies are going to break out of the graves so that the world will know that the resurrection has happened. But by the very fact that some in the early church were teaching that the resurrection had already past, should led us to understand that even then the early church did not think the resurrection would be something visible.

The fact is there was a visible representation of the resurrection, after the resurrection of Christ, where many that had died rose from the grave and were seen of many.

It is not unscriptural. There are two resurrections. NON PHYSICAL AND PHYSICAL.

NON PHYSICAL - SALVATION:
Joh 5:24-29 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


PHYSICAL FROM GRAVES:
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice he said NOW IS in the first instance, nut not he second because the second is FUTURE ALONE.

[Godsdrummer]

We have gotten off the subject of this thread Maybe we should start a new thread. With the last few posting on the resurrection moved over.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Loren has many great truths, but in this one regarding the spiritual body he is in error. My opinion, of course.
But so are you in error when you do not believe God intended for Adam to rule the earth forevermore. Again, you are not answering me, unless I missed it. Where will we spend eternity future?

An opinion: I agree.

"I" am in error? Or is everyone in error...?

If it was just for Adam to "rule forever", then YES; you would be correct. But you are missing
some vital evidence and information. It is found everywhere we look: on earth, and in the
universe. It is that everything is eroding; that is, getting old and dying out: and that which
is dying out is also being renewed.

It is the witness of death that brings the promise of life, for without death, there would be no
need of being renewed. It is the same with the day beginning in the evening, and is followed
by darkness: and then comes the promise of LIGHT. The evening represents OUR beginning in
creation; the night, the fall of man; the morning, our redemption. This witness is found in the
first six days: so it represents our creation to the END of our redemption: it is six days. Now
the sixth day is also from the evening, to the morning. So now the morning AFTER the sixth day
is the Day of Rest. It is eternal.

Yes, Beloved, you missed it. Not that I ever responded: but a dictionary will never resolve
our questions. Our witness lies in the content and context of scripture: it can only be found by
the Spirit that spoke to Moses.

Simon Peter's and Nicodemus' testimony are the same: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar
Jonah, for flesh and blood hast not revealed this unto you but my Father which is in heaven."

No, we will not live forever in a place that was not meant to abide forever. The Church
is eternal, and we meant to abide in Him that is eternal. When the believer received
the Holy Spirit, as we have obeyed the gospel, we have received eternity.