You Can Fake It All

[n david]

The thread would have been more valid and I would have been more open had it not targeted the UPC.

Instead of attacking the UPC alone, it could have been more about churches in general.

Do people in any church fake salvation or go through the motions just to be accepted.

That's the better question, not this tripe of targeting the UPC.

[Reader]

I have no problem being in disagreement. Thank you for being courteous in your responses to me.

[Reader]

Do people in any church fake salvation or go through the motions just to be accepted.

Could we address this some? I'm not so sure that this is - or should be - the focus.

Here is what is on my mind. There are some people who have lost sight of what it is all about. They may fully believe all the "rules" but in their heart they have gotten so focused on the rules that they start to lose touch with God. Those people could tell everyone new all the things that "need" to be done. Like a check list. Repent. Okay, check, I got that. Be baptized. Check, I believe in Jesus and get baptized. It is more about the "checklist" than about faith in and a relationship with Christ. Thus, a person could check off everything in the list, but yet not have any solid relationship with God.

Does this better explain where I am coming from and what I saw in the post? (Of course there are those who deliberately fake, but I see a more serious problem.)

So using those "rules" as a gauge to tell people they are in or out is problematic when there could be people brought into the church, who are told they are "in" once they completed the "rules" but yet may not really know God much. They could be counting on being told by many they are "in" .....but could they be "out" because they were never shown or never knew how to go about having a relationship with God. This, to me, is more tragic than people deliberately faking.

[n david]

Speaking of faking it...

Source Link

Elevation Church keeps an exact count of its thousands of baptisms, all part of its laser like focus on numbers. But those numbers have spiked and dipped from year to year according to a confidential internal report obtained by the NBC Charlotte I-Team — from 289 in 2010 to 2,410 in 2011, from 689 in 2012 to 3,519 for the first eight months of last year. To get those thousands of baptisms takes a lot of planning. And Elevation produced a document to show other churches how they could do likewise. It’s titled “Spontaneous Baptisms — A How-To Guide” and the church shared it freely on the Sun Stand Still website. But parts of the mass baptism guide have drawn sharp criticism — from other Christians. Page one shows that the first people instructed to respond to Pastor Steven’s call to baptism were not converts suddenly inspired but Elevation volunteers carefully planted in the crowd. The guide instructs, “Fifteen people will sit in the worship experience and be the first ones to move when Pastor gives the call. Move intentionally through the highest visibility areas and the longest walk.”

Elevation Pastor Steven Furtick asked me for a face-to-face, off-the-record meeting with me to ask me not to run this report. I spent an hour on the telephone and two more hours in person discussing my reporting, his church and his concerns. Pastor Steven said I have been unfair and this report in particular would hurt Elevation Church members. I asked Pastor Steven to consent to an unedited, on-camera interview. I offered to let Elevation’s cameras record the interview. I offered to stream the interview in its entirety online. I offered to air a half-hour unedited interview on television. And WCNC held this report while waiting for Pastor Steven to respond. Instead Elevation Chief Financial Officer Chunks Corbett e-mailed a statement, saying in part: “We are confident that those who attend Elevation Church know and understand our mission and vision for reaching people for Jesus Christ. As attendees, they are provided, through weekly teachings, biblical context for everything we do and practice, such as baptism, giving, serving and inviting friends to church.”

So what is going on here? It appears that the church was offered plenty of chances to explain its methods. I cannot fault the station’s approach and, yes, it sure seems like the Elevation leadership has something to hide. But here is the bottom line: We still don’t know if the 15 volunteers are people who fake decisions and then, even worse, go on to take part in fake baptisms. That appears to be the claim being made in this report.

*gasp* Faking it at a non-UPC church? Say it ain't so!!!

[n david]

This claim of Apostolics being fake isn't new....Paul was accused of it himself.

2 Cor 13

1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

2 I told you before,and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort,be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

[Reader]

Ummmm, n David, if you are responding to my posts, you've totally & completely missed what I've written.

I have neither said there is no faking outside of the UPC, nor have I spoken of false accusations of people faking.

What gives?

[ILG]

Please. Why go through the trouble of all that when it's much easier to fake it in a denominal church. No need for baptism or Holy Ghost or living separate from the world. Say a prayer and keep living how you want to live.

I'ts not easier for people who would be called backslid and a number of other names and told they are going to hell and being pressured by family members all the time to "get saved". In that instance it would be easier to fake it.

Of course people can fake it. Though I reject your claim that a great many do so.

I never put a measurement on how many are doing so. It is possible for a great many to do so. But I am not going to say a great many are. I am simply saying it's possible for people to do so.

And what's constructive about this? Other than saying....oooooh the UPC fakes it, which isn't true. How do you know? Did you? Why are you judging people?

Okay, first of all, I didn't say "The UPC fakes it". My, but you are defensive. I know some people fake it because I have stood in the sidelines while I watched saints and district officials commit adultery, suicide, and embezzle money. Yes, I have seen all of these things. The reason this discussion can be constructive is because it can help people see why these terrible things can happen while UPC and other like churches can so easily claim to know who is "in" and who is "out". They really don't know who is "in" and who is "out". Things are just not that clear cut. Knowing this can help people not be hurt as often or as deeply.

[ILG]

The truth is that many other churches do not constantly measure who is in or out. There are churches with pretty much an "anything goes" teaching. You can even find ones where you can be a non-believer or a witch and fit in just fine and never feel you are being measured.

On the other hand, there are churches outside of Apostolics who also constantly measure who is in and out. Westboro is an prime example. There are a number of other churches/groups.

Both of these things are true.

So why not stop accusing the poster of 'whatever' and instead address the post. If you think what was shared has no merit, then say why, but not based upon what you think of the poster, but rather what was written by them. If you think some of it has merit, then say why, but not based upon what you think of the poster.

It is an emotional spin tactic to try and get people off the subject so it can't be discussed. The easiest way to get people off the subject is to try and attack the poster's character. So, yes, the subject needs to be the subject. Thanks, Reader.

[ILG]

I think there is a mixture of this. Some may fake everything for whatever reasons. I recall a pastor sharing how a man faked tongues because he wanted to marry a woman in church. Some may only "fake" standards because they don't believe they are found in the Bible but believe they should follow what is taught. It may have nothing to do with wrongful motives. There may be people who do it all but are not knowingly faking anything as they are going through the motions, but not really having a proper knowledge of God. There are many aspects to this besides someone deliberately and with wrong intent "faking" it all.

I think there is a mixture too. I know some very godly, wonderful people who are in the UPC. They are very sincere people and in my estimation, aren't faking anything at all. (I have to qualify it, because I also can't say who is "in" and who is "out") but I say this to say that there are people in the UPC that I love and believe are very sincere, godly Christians.

I have also met people in the UPC that cheated on their spouses, embezzled money, lied, cheated and stole. These are people that the church considered to be "in" but are worse in character than some the church considered to be "out".

Those are not so much the point, I do not believe, but rather that because these can be faked, how can they - or should they - be used as a tool to say anyone is in or out?

Yes, this is my point. What people are using as a measuring stick for whether people are saved or not, these can all be faked one by one or collectively.

[ILG]

How do you know people are faking?

I have personally known of district officials committing adultery, committing suicide and embezzling money. So, were any of these people faking?

What facts and evidence do you have to back up the claim that "a great many" do what you accuse them of doing.

A great many could be faking but I am not going to say they are. I am just fruit inspecting what I see.

Why would people go through the trouble when it's much easier to fake it in a denominal church where it's one prayer and you're golden?

You are making an assumption that it's easier for many to fake it in a denominal church. That is simply not true. It is MUCH easier for those who are multi-generational to fake it and stay in the church than to be castigated and rejected by their families and friends for being liberal and backslid.

What are your suggestions to ensure people aren't faking it in the UPC? Tongue check? Monitor the saints at their homes and work? Make people write an essay on the plan of salvation to make sure they really know and aren't just pretending.

No, stop judging who is "in" and who is "out" as if the yardstick is accurate.