Is There A Difference In?

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

My Grandson, using the top of the door as a guideline, taught me about the decline of todays morality. As morality Of the world lowers, so do the standards of the church, though we are still above their level, a lot of us have lowered our standards. So as the worlds standards decline, so do the standards of the church declined, as we have shortened our skirts, wear lower necklines, Shorter sleeve lengths and more figure hugging clothing. Standing closer loser to the fence, but not yet straddling it. But we are moving closer. Am I not correct?

Good question. So, is our modesty of dress determined by our immediate culture?

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't think you've shown a typical American male attitude. That sounds rather biased.

Many "other cultures" also practice fornication and witchcraft too. It's the churches job to teach them the right way. Of course they don't see being half naked as immodest.

In most other cultures, mothers nursing their babies doesn't get a second glance from men or even women. In America, people are grossed out, appalled, such...

In many cultures, women walk around topless. Men don't stop and stare. They don't look at breasts any different than one might stare at your hands.

Modesty is subjective according to culture. In some, anything less that a woman's eyes showing is immodest. In others, all a man needs on is a turtle shell. If you were to tell him he's immodest, you would be seen as highly offensive to him and his culture. If you encourage the woman to show more than her eyes, you are inviting her to be immodest, and therefore offensive to her and her culture.

In Europe, nakedness is everywhere. Not that people walk everywhere in public that way, but their issues with anything of sexual nature isn't as 'shock and awe' as it is here.

Sin is sin. It's not cultural. Fornication and witchcraft aren't cultural issues and shouldn't be compared as such.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Lacey

You are right and......
MANY in our own country don't see that as immodest.

When it comes down to it, unless you dress to cover your neck, your arms to your wrist, and your legs to your ankles, you are half naked.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

My Grandson, using the top of the door as a guideline, taught me about the decline of todays morality. As morality Of the world lowers, so do the standards of the church, though we are still above their level, a lot of us have lowered our standards. So as the worlds standards decline, so do the standards of the church declined, as we have shortened our skirts, wear lower necklines, Shorter sleeve lengths and more figure hugging clothing. Standing closer loser to the fence, but not yet straddling it. But we are moving closer. Am I not correct?

Harlots in the 1800's dressed more modestly than UPC women do today. Does that mean they were more holy or that the UPC women today have lower standards than yesterday's harlots?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sasha

In most other cultures, mothers nursing their babies doesn't get a second glance from men or even women. In America, people are grossed out, appalled, such...

In many cultures, women walk around topless. Men don't stop and stare. They don't look at breasts any different than one might stare at your hands.

Modesty is subjective according to culture. In some, anything less that a woman's eyes showing is immodest. In others, all a man needs on is a turtle shell. If you were to tell him he's immodest, you would be seen as highly offensive to him and his culture. If you encourage the woman to show more than her eyes, you are inviting her to be immodest, and therefore offensive to her and her culture.

In Europe, nakedness is everywhere. Not that people walk everywhere in public that way, but their issues with anything of sexual nature isn't as 'shock and awe' as it is here.

Sin is sin. It's not cultural. Fornication and witchcraft aren't cultural issues and shouldn't be compared as such.

We aren't talking about subjective modesty but what the bible teaches..

The point here is just as other cultures practice nakedness without feeling "immodest" so they also practice fornication and witchcraft without feeling it's wrong.

It's a false comparison.

That Nakedness is everywhere in Europe just plays into my point. Infact SIN is everywhere too.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

We aren't talking about subjective modesty but what the bible teaches..

The point here is just as other cultures practice nakedness without feeling "immodest" so they also practice fornication and witchcraft without feeling it's wrong.

It's a false comparison.

That Nakedness is everywhere in Europe just plays into my point. Infact SIN is everywhere too.

The Bible teaches modesty? Where?

Prax, you are one of the smartest people on this forum. I really mean that. So it puzzles me that you don't seem to understand that modesty is culturally driven and cannot be compared to sin that all cultures practice.

Maybe Sis. Alvear can help if she sees this post. We should have a 'tag' option. LOL!

[votivesoul]

Why someone would ever divorce holiness from righteousness is beyond me.

One cannot be righteous in the eyes of God, and NOT be holy. One cannot be considered holy by God, and NOT be considered righteous, as well.

So to argue over whether these things should be called holiness standards or standards of righteousness seems unnecessary.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Sasha

Typical American male with the typical American mindset.

Uh, I asserted only what a 1st century Jew wrote to a half Jew, half Greek convert who had been sent to a Hellenized (i.e. Greek speaking, culturally influenced by Greece) city called Ephesus in Asia Minor during the peak of the Roman Empire, so he could set a Christian church straight on problems it was having, some of which included how the women were adorning themselves and behaving.

Then I quoted what a first century Jew from Palestine wrote to various 1st century Jewish Christians dispersed throughout the Roman Empire after the fall of capital of Israel, Jerusalem, who were also living in a Hellenized world of Greek culture and philosophy (e.g Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Biththynia).

Then, I brought both into a modern context so we could have some application.

So, you can see, 1700 - 1900 some years before there was any such thing as a typical American male mindset, there was a TYPICAL CHRISTIAN MINDSET which commanded believers to reject the cultural norms of the society around them and embrace the standards given to the church by the King of kings and Lord of lords.

A rejection that included:

1.) Cultural immodesty
2.) Expensive clothing
3.) Flashy jewelry
4.) Head dresses embroidered into the hair
5.) Any outward adorning that accentuated the sensual side of a person's physicality, and so engendered lust in the opposite sex

Even Jesus, when John saw Him in a vision, as He stood in the Heavens (where no sinfulness exists at all) had adorned Himself in a garment that came down to His ankles.

Revelation 1:13,

13. ...the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

We all want to be like Jesus, be Christ-like, and model Him to the world, except when it comes to how we dress and appear. Then, and in this instance, ONLY then, do we tell the SOVEREIGN SON OF OUR ETERNAL GOD and RULER OF THE ENTIRE CREATED ORDER to take a hike so we can dress and appear however we want according to our own whim and conscience, because you know, "standards" aren't from God and they have no bearing on anyone's salvation.

Yeah, just keep singing that tune to the Judgment Seat. You'll find out then how well it worked out for you.

OR...

We can confess that holiness is a condition of the heart that says I promise, on my honor and standing as a believer in Jesus Christ, to do whatever He commands me to do, no matter how hard, difficult, contrary to my flesh or culture, even if I'm rejected and ridiculed, so that above all, I PLEASE HIM FIRST AND FOREMOST, and that holiness:

...is a state of mind that says I will not eat anything that causes my brother or sister to offend, nor dress in anyway that causes my brother or sister to offend, or speak in anyway that causes my brother or sister to offend, or act in anyway that causes my brother or sister to offend, or live in anyway that causes my brother or sister to offend, or behave myself in anyway that causes my brother or sister to offend, so that I can have a conscience likewise devoid of all offense, knowing I have not once sinned, neither against God, or any of my brothers or sisters, and so, become as Christ-like and sin-free as I can in this life for as long as I live, as preparation for the life to come.

We could do that, instead. But maybe that's too much for some people...?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sasha

The Bible teaches modesty? Where?

Prax, you are one of the smartest people on this forum. I really mean that. So it puzzles me that you don't seem to understand that modesty is culturally driven and cannot be compared to sin that all cultures practice.

Maybe Sis. Alvear can help if she sees this post. We should have a 'tag' option. LOL!

Sasha, each culture can have it's own order of modesty but that does not mean the bible does not teach on Modesty. The first lesson was when God covered up Adam and Eve's nakedness.

BTW Just as each culture has it's own norms, that goes for other areas of morality.

As I said in some cultures Fornication and even Adultery are the cultural norm.

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

The New King James Version. 1982 (1 Ti 2:8–15). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

88.49 αἰδώς, οῦς f: the quality of modesty, with the implication of resulting respect—‘modesty.’ γυναῖκας ἐν καταστολῇ κοσμίῳ μετὰ αἰδοῦς καὶ σωφροσύνης κοσμεῖν ἑαυτάς ‘that women dress themselves in becoming clothing, modestly, and properly’ 1 Tm 2:9.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (747). New York: United Bible Societies.

F Modesty, Propriety (88.46–88.50)

88.46 σεμνότης, ητος f: behavior which is befitting, implying a measure of dignity leading to respect—‘propriety, befitting behavior.’ διάγωμεν ἐν πάσῃ εὐσεβείᾳ καὶ σεμνότητι ‘that we may live in entire godliness and propriety’ 1 Tm 2:2. In some languages V 1, p 747 ‘propriety’ is best expressed as ‘to act in the right way’ or ‘to act as one ought.’

88.47 σεμνός, ή, όν: pertaining to appropriate, befitting behavior and implying dignity and respect—‘honorable, worthy of respect, of good character.’ διακόνους ὡσαύτως σεμνούς ‘helpers should be of good character’ or ‘deacons …’ 1 Tm 3:8.

88.48 κόσμιοςa, ον: pertaining to being modest in the sense of moderate and wellordered—‘modest, well-ordered, moderate, becoming.’ δεῖ οὖν τὸν ἐπίσκοπον … νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον ‘the church leader must be … sober, self-controlled, moderate’ 1 Tm 3:2; ἐν καταστολῇ κοσμίῳ ‘in modest apparel’ 1 Tm 2:9. For another interpretation of κόσμιος in 1 Tm 2:9, see 66.10.

88.49 αἰδώς, οῦς f: the quality of modesty, with the implication of resulting respect—‘modesty.’ γυναῖκας ἐν καταστολῇ κοσμίῳ μετὰ αἰδοῦς καὶ σωφροσύνης κοσμεῖν ἑαυτάς ‘that women dress themselves in becoming clothing, modestly, and properly’ 1 Tm 2:9.

88.50 εὐσχημόνωςa: pertaining to being a fitting or becoming manner of behavior—‘in a becoming manner, decently, with propriety.’ ὡς ἐν ἡμέρᾳ εὐσχημόνως περιπατήσωμεν ‘let us conduct ourselves in a becoming manner as (people who live) in (the light of) day’ Ro 13:13.


Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (746–747). New York: United Bible Societies.

2:9 in like manner also: This expression probably continues the discussion of prayer begun in v. 8. In other words, when men pray they are to possess sincere and holy attitudes; when women pray, they should be modest. modest apparel: The emphasis is that women should dress appropriately when at worship, and not put on extravagant clothes that draw attention to themselves. Propriety means reverence and respect, shrinking away from what is inappropriate. Moderation may also be translated “sound judgment” or “self-control.”

Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1997). The Nelson Study Bible: New King James Version (1 Ti 2:9). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers.

23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty

The New King James Version. 1982 (1 Co 12:23). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

In the NT sōphrosýnē and its cognates appear only infrequently; most occurrences are in the Pastoral Epistles. There seems to have been a gradual acceptance of the Greek ethical tradition in the early Christian tradition, culminating in the Pastorals (see GODLINESS, on Gk eusébeia). One should not too summarily disparage this acceptance as accommodation. It provided a defense against dualistic misunderstandings of the faith and, as a consequence, against both ascetic and libertinistic misunderstandings of the Christian ethic. According to the Pastorals moderation and contentedness mark life in this world as a life in God’s presence. In this context the sōphrosýnē required especially of women must find its referent. Thus in 1 Tim. 2:15 “modesty” means a disposition toward sexuality including both moderation and contentedness, excluding both asceticism and libertinism. Similarly, v 9 (where sōphrosýnē also occurs but is translated “sensibly” by the RSV while aidṓs is translated “modestly,” the two terms being virtually synonymous) demands that women show restraint and contentedness in all things, as is suitable to godliness (Gk theosébeia). Cf. 2 Macc. 15:12, where aidḗmōn (RSV, NEB, “modest”; AV “reverend”) occurs in a description of Onias the high priest.

. Vol. 3: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised. 1979–1988 (G. W. Bromiley, Ed.) (400). Wm. B. Eerdmans.

[MawMaw]

Originally Posted by Sasha

In most other cultures, mothers nursing their babies doesn't get a second glance from men or even women. In America, people are grossed out, appalled, such...

In many cultures, women walk around topless. Men don't stop and stare. They don't look at breasts any different than one might stare at your hands.

Modesty is subjective according to culture. In some, anything less that a woman's eyes showing is immodest. In others, all a man needs on is a turtle shell. If you were to tell him he's immodest, you would be seen as highly offensive to him and his culture. If you encourage the woman to show more than her eyes, you are inviting her to be immodest, and therefore offensive to her and her culture.

In Europe, nakedness is everywhere. Not that people walk everywhere in public that way, but their issues with anything of sexual nature isn't as 'shock and awe' as it is here.

Sin is sin. It's not cultural. Fornication and witchcraft aren't cultural issues and shouldn't be compared as such.

I guess we all would still be walking around naked had Adam and Eve not sinned.
But, they did, and God covered their nakedness. How can we not believe that
He still wants us covered?

Originally Posted by Sasha

When it comes down to it, unless you dress to cover your neck, your arms to your wrist, and your legs to your ankles, you are half naked.

Silly! although.....
When it's really cold, I do dress like that!