Question About Submission

[Mrsnt]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

To me, a lot of these standards aren't sin in and of itself, but the reason why you would want to do such and such a thing.

EXACTLY. They are not a sin. And the reason a person would want to do them? To look nice. Wanting to look nice is also not a sin.

So...what's the problem?

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Mrsnt - I know E.X.A.C.T.L.Y. what you are going through and how you feel. I went through the exact same thing.

It's not as easy as - 'oh, following the standards is no big deal, so just do it, even if you don't agree'. Not at all. It goes so much deeper than that. I struggled with it all for so long that I began to feel like I was going insane. I also slipped into a very deep depression.

P.M. me if you'd like to talk privately. I can share my journey with you.

That would be so wonderful! I'm beginning to think that I'm all alone in the world...it's so nice to know I'm not!

Originally Posted by Sasha

It took me longer than that. In fact, the change was in my heart long before it showed on the outside.

It took a while for me to stop focusing on the women wearing pants on the platform and put my eyes on Jesus. All my life I'd been taught to judge people by how they looked, and it's hard to change that kind of thinking very quick. I still struggle, I admit.

I do watch in awe now at people who love God in spite of what they are wearing. God doesn't care, why should I?

That's where I'm at now. The change is definitely happening in my heart, and I don't see anything the same now. It's so freeing not to have to judge people by how they look!

Even if you're not trying to judge a person by how they look, it's almost impossible not to when you're taught, for example, that a woman must wear only skirts. So if I saw a woman in pants, I subconsciously judged that that woman must not be saved, or must not be truly in love with Jesus, or else surely she would get the "revelation" that I had.

Ya know? Maybe yall don't have that same problem...

[Mrsnt]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

We've been programmed a certain way for a LONG time. Our brains don't rewire themselves overnight. Our brains have been trained to respond to certain visual triggers.

It's been very humbling to me to realize how much I have judged people merely by their appearance.

Yes. Me too.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

God gives commands and we submit, because "Thus saith the Lord..."

Christ commands us, and we say "Yes, Lord" and submit.

A husband commands us, and we say "Not so, you have no right to order me to submit".

Is your husband your head or not?

If you knew Christ, as your husband's head, had ordered him to submit in some area, and your husband did not because that's not what "true submission means", do you believe your husband would be in disobedience to his Lord and Master?



This isn't so. You are personally accountable to the local assembly of believers, as well as to God. The Apostles and Prophets set in order, corrected, and rebuked as necessary, so that the churches they oversaw came to believe what they were taught and told to believe.

Your personal feelings on any one matter, and how those feelings direct your actions, WILL ABSOLUTELY affect, for better or for worse, the local assembly of which you and your husband are a part.

If your husband or you are in ministry, for example, and your choices negatively affect his or her position and service to God and man, so that he or you are hindered (justly or not), then it's not just you as an individual being accountable to God only, it's also your husband and the entire local assembly.

Since you've already admitted that nothing he requires of you is sinful, then how in the world can you not submit? By not being sinful, they automatically become un-sinful, which means just and acceptable before God.

You may have no personal conviction on the matter, and may feel no need to do anything your husband is requiring of you in this area. Fine. These things, in and of themselves, are not salvational (heaven or hell).

But you've stated multiple times that you love and respect your husband. I believe you.

Remember what love does. It prefers the other person above itself, and does not seek it's own way. Your love will find a way and lead you to submit.

If may not be through feel good affection. But it will be through the principle of agape God decrees in His word.



You have no identity apart from your husband. You are one flesh. The only identity in a Christian marriage is "us". The heart of God's message includes being in subjection to your husband.



You say, "I dress and appear this way to please my husband and be in subjection to his desire for me as his bride".



Admirable. Here is truth:

Ephesians 5:33,



Reverence here is phobeo. It means to be afraid of, in this sense:

"to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience"

There is no qualifications upon this verse. It does not read that a wife only HAS to do this if the husband is loving his wife properly.

In 1 Peter 3:1 and 5, "in subjection" is a reflexive verb. It means the object of the verb, the wife, has to subjugate herself to her husband. It is a choice of the will.

If at any time, or in the future, you choose not to do this, you are just as guilty as you say your husband is, of not complying with the Scriptures. Don't force his hand.

*sigh* Maybe you're right. I don't know...

Originally Posted by Amanah

I think that to attend an Apostolic church without adopting the culture of the church will cause cracks and strains in the harmony of ones relationship with family, friends, the ministry, and eventually with God.

For the most part, this will result in having to change your theology so that you can attend church else where, or not attend at all.

Such a change in personal beliefs can cause a strain on a marriage to the extent of there being serious harm to a marriage, unless both partners make the change together.

If you do make such a change, will you be comfortable with adopting a theology that doesn't include Baptism in Jesus Name, and being filled with the Holy Ghost.

This is why I feel compelled to encourage you to think and pray carefully about what you are doing. Sometimes its better to not offend then to take the liberty to do what you wish. I think there is a slippery slope here.

1 Corinthians 8:13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.

Agreed. I'm considering this very carefully.

[renee819]

One thing that we must be careful about in the church, is rebellion.
And I don't see this in any of you ladies. The Bible still says. “Obey them that have the rule over you, “ I believe this is mainly talking about a Pastor. But I believe that we have the right to chose which Pastor we will obey.


Some of the scriptures that were freeing to me are,

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What has the Law got to do with our subject?

After many of these Jews had repented, been baptized in Jesus name, and as Paul asked,
“Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? “
Not only were some of them bound by the “works of the Law,” but by many man-made laws that the Priests had added to the Law to try to keep them in line.
Can't you just hear, (from what is written)
You men must be circumcised.
Don't eat meat, blessed by idols.
You can't eat pork
It is an abomination to eat anything from the seas that doesn't have fins or scales.
The many meats that are unclean.
Don't plow with an ox and ass together
Don't wear mixed garments of wool and linen together.
A woman can't wear that which pertaineth to a man
A man can't wear that which pertaineth to a woman.

“3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? “

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Mrsnt

That's where I'm at now. The change is definitely happening in my heart, and I don't see anything the same now. It's so freeing not to have to judge people by how they look!

Even if you're not trying to judge a person by how they look, it's almost impossible not to when you're taught, for example, that a woman must wear only skirts. So if I saw a woman in pants, I subconsciously judged that that woman must not be saved, or must not be truly in love with Jesus, or else surely she would get the "revelation" that I had.

Ya know? Maybe yall don't have that same problem...

I don't have, nor ever had to my knowledge, that mindset. I have been arout skirt wearing church ladies my entire life.

[Abiding Now]

It's a shame that we can't hear the husband's side of this story, then we could "judge" with righteous judgment.

[Roxanne Murphy]

From what I am reading in this thread, those who believe that outward appearance equates to 'holiness' are counselling the author of this thread to submit to her husband's version of 'holiness' because he is her head. I have a question for those who take this position: what do you say to the married woman whose husband does NOT believe the traditional outward holiness 'standards', yet the wife believes she must now stop wearing her wedding band because jewelry/adornment is not holy, thus sinful. Her husband is very distressed because he believes that wedding band is very important. Does your counsel that the wife should submit to his conviction still apply to this situation? Why or why not? (This is a true story, not hypothetical.) I am very curious.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Murphy

From what I am reading in this thread, those who believe that outward appearance equates to 'holiness' are counselling the author of this thread to submit to her husband's version of 'holiness' because he is her head. I have a question for those who take this position: what do you say to the married woman whose husband does NOT believe the traditional outward holiness 'standards', yet the wife believes she must now stop wearing her wedding band because jewelry/adornment is not holy, thus sinful. Her husband is very distressed because he believes that wedding band is very important. Does your counsel that the wife should submit to his conviction still apply to this situation? Why or why not? (This is a true story, not hypothetical.) I am very curious.

Nobody believes that outward appearance equates to holiness.... We believe that you can dress holy and not be holy on the inside but you can not be holy on the inside and dress unholy on the outward.

[houston]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Nobody believes that outward appearance equates to holiness.... We believe that you can dress holy and not be holy on the inside but you can not be holy on the inside and dress unholy on the outward.

ha. Maybe nobody here...

[Roxanne Murphy]

Hometown guy, I am the wrong person for you to make such a comment like 'nobody believes outward appearance equates to holiness . I grew up in the UPC, graduated from one of their Bible colleges, and can assure you that whenever a preacher/pastor in said group had to preach/teach about holiness, it was titled 'holiness standards' and it included the following 'standards': uncut hair for women, no makeup, no jewelry (some made exceptions for wedding rings, others preached they were also sinful and led the way to becoming 'charismatic'), women couldn't wear pants, and then if they had time they would maybe forbid facial hair on men. THAT was and still is what is called 'holiness' preaching in the district and by extension the denomination in which I spent 38 years of my life.
And now back to my original question: does the application of the Biblical principle of the husband being the head of the wife hold true when the wife believes she must follow 'holiness standards' teaching and her husband does not?

[Roxanne Murphy]

And while we are on the subject, where in scripture do you find 'dressing holy'? I find the exhortation to BE holy, and a great SCRIPTURAL definition of true holiness can be found in the last part of Ephesians 4:
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:21-32 KJV)
True holiness, biblically defined, is how you live, not how you dress.