The Gift of Tongues and Initial Evidence

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by renee819

I believe that we have a nation of Believers,

I disagree with this. I think we have a nation of the uncommitted who "follow" Jesus for the fishes and the loaves. The only reason many haven't turned back is because most of the preachers don't preach real commitment, self denial, REPENTANCE, and so these masses have never had to deal with a "hard saying" and ask "who can hear it?". Hence we have churches full of unconverted people not because they don't speak in tongues but because they don't truly believe and haven't repented of their sins.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Renee I don't have a problem with Romans 8:11, nor will you find me in any of my nearly 4,000 posts arguing someone can be saved without the Spirit.

I would argue the Bible does not make a distinction between (genuine) believers and those who are born again, both terms refer to the same people. John 1:12 and Ephesians 1:13-14 equivocate genuine belief as the point of regeneration. Which Paul also teaches earlier in Romans chapter 4. Throughout the ministry of Jesus the emphasis was on belief not Spirit baptism. Jesus certainly spoke of the baptism of the Spirit, but never taught it as something we must "do". The "do" was to BELIEVE then the Spirit was to be a gift for all true believers (cf John 7:37-39).
This does not discard what God did with tongues in Acts or subsequently but does suggest that regeneration can be accomplished apart from speaking in tongues.

Furthermore tongues is never related to any passage explaining salvation in the NT. In particular Believers are told the EVIDENCE of rebirth is love for other believers, love for Christ and obedience to His commands, bearing the fruit of the Spirit, and ALL of the tests in 1 John for the genuine believer. None of which suggest (nor explicitly teach) that tongues is necessary for salvation/regeneration.

Jason, with your permission, I'd like to take what you have written here and start a new Thread on the different forms of Salvation.

It may be this evening before I can get to it.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by renee819 View Post

I believe that we have a nation of Believers,

Jason wrote,

I disagree with this. I think we have a nation of the uncommitted who "follow" Jesus for the fishes and the loaves. The only reason many haven't turned back is because most of the preachers don't preach real commitment, self denial, REPENTANCE, and so these masses have never had to deal with a "hard saying" and ask "who can hear it?". Hence we have churches full of unconverted people not because they don't speak in tongues but because they don't truly believe and haven't repented of their sins

.

Yes I agree with this. What I should have said is, We have a nation of people that call themselves Believers.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Renee I don't have a problem with Romans 8:11, nor will you find me in any of my nearly 4,000 posts arguing someone can be saved without the Spirit.

I would argue the Bible does not make a distinction between (genuine) believers and those who are born again, both terms refer to the same people. John 1:12 and Ephesians 1:13-14 equivocate genuine belief as the point of regeneration. Which Paul also teaches earlier in Romans chapter 4. Throughout the ministry of Jesus the emphasis was on belief not Spirit baptism. Jesus certainly spoke of the baptism of the Spirit, but never taught it as something we must "do". The "do" was to BELIEVE then the Spirit was to be a gift for all true believers (cf John 7:37-39).
This does not discard what God did with tongues in Acts or subsequently but does suggest that regeneration can be accomplished apart from speaking in tongues.

Furthermore tongues is never related to any passage explaining salvation in the NT. In particular Believers are told the EVIDENCE of rebirth is love for other believers, love for Christ and obedience to His commands, bearing the fruit of the Spirit, and ALL of the tests in 1 John for the genuine believer. None of which suggest (nor explicitly teach) that tongues is necessary for salvation/regeneration.

Jason, You cite these scriptures focusing on genuine belief as the main point. When I read Ephesians 1:13-14; John 1:12; John 7:37 and Romans 8:11, I see both genuine belief and the importance and emphasis placed upon receiving the Spirit.

When I read, Romans 5:5, "And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.", I know I am able, through the Spirit, to bring forth evidence of love for others, love for Christ, obedience to His commands, bear the fruit of the Spirit and ALL of the tests in I John 1 as a genuine believer.

How do I know I can accomplish this? Because I have read and understand Galatians 3:2-3 "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

There is just as much evidence in scripture that genuine belief is as important and as much a focus, you can't begin to go anywhere without it, as the necessity of being Spirit filled.

I conclude that Believers and those who are born again are interchangeable terms as much as I believe Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are speaking of one and the same. If I didn't believe that, I might as well head back to the Baptist Church.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by renee819

Originally Posted by renee819 View Post


Jason wrote,
.

Yes I agree with this. What I should have said is, We have a nation of people that call themselves Believers.

This is exactly how I interpreted what you originally posted. Yes, a nation of people who call themselves Believers.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by renee819

Jason, with your permission, I'd like to take what you have written here and start a new Thread on the different forms of Salvation.

It may be this evening before I can get to it.

Absolutely

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Jason, You cite these scriptures focusing on genuine belief as the main point. When I read Ephesians 1:13-14; John 1:12; John 7:37 and Romans 8:11, I see both genuine belief and the importance and emphasis placed upon receiving the Spirit.

There is just as much evidence in scripture that genuine belief is as important and as much a focus, you can't begin to go anywhere without it, as the necessity of being Spirit filled.

I conclude that Believers and those who are born again are interchangeable terms as much as I believe Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are speaking of one and the same.

I agree with ALL of this.

I think the confusion comes about because pentecostals have a hard time distinguishing the Sprit and tongues, due to their soteriology and initial evidence doctrine. Thus anyone who doesn't believe in the necessity of speaking in tongues is assumed to believe that someone can be saved without the Spirit of God, which is simply not the case. (At least in my case).

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by renee819

Yes I agree with this. What I should have said is, We have a nation of people that call themselves Believers.

So then my point is, Christianity isn't a mess because millions of Christians don't speak in tongues, its a mess because most (I say 80% at least) of the "believers" are actually "non-believers". Amongst the remnant there are people who have never spoken in tongues who are every bit as committed to Christ as any apostolic and who would be willing to give their lives for Him. In fact many of the martyrs in foreign countries giving their lives for Jesus are not pentecostals. That is not to say martyrdom = salvation, but simply to point out there are those who have so committed their lives to Christ, experienced His grace and power to save, and ARE willing to take up their cross and lay down their lives for Him, even though they haven't spoken in tongues, I find it hard to say they can't be saved because they haven't spoken in tongues.

And that's not an emotional argument, it is an giving some examples to back up point about scripture. Particularly genuine belief and repentance is necessary to be saved not tongues. God gives His Spirit to those who genuinely believe/repent.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I agree with ALL of this.

I think the confusion comes about because pentecostals have a hard time distinguishing the Spirit and tongues, due to their soteriology and initial evidence doctrine. Thus anyone who doesn't believe in the necessity of speaking in tongues is assumed to believe that someone can be saved without the Spirit of God, which is simply not the case. (At least in my case).

The evidence of the Spirit was and is tongues. I don't see the confusion there.

Jesus began that discourse promising the Comforter would come after His Resurrection. He identifies the Comforter as the Holy Ghost - John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost..."

Jesus says that we will have "power" after the Holy Ghost has come - Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power after the Holy Ghost is come upon you."

And we know what happened in the Upper Room - Acts 2:4.

Paul says that we will be filled with joy and peace, abounding in hope through the power of the Holy Ghost - Romans 15:13

If anyone is to blame for putting the "initial evidence" monkey on our backs, you can blame Jesus to begin with. He is the one that brought it up first.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

So then my point is, Christianity isn't a mess because millions of Christians don't speak in tongues, its a mess because most (I say 80% at least) of the "believers" are actually "non-believers". Amongst the remnant there are people who have never spoken in tongues who are every bit as committed to Christ as any apostolic and who would be willing to give their lives for Him. In fact many of the martyrs in foreign countries giving their lives for Jesus are not pentecostals. That is not to say martyrdom = salvation, but simply to point out there are those who have so committed their lives to Christ, experienced His grace and power to save, and ARE willing to take up their cross and lay down their lives for Him, even though they haven't spoken in tongues, I find it hard to say they can't be saved because they haven't spoken in tongues.

And that's not an emotional argument, it is an giving some examples to back up point about scripture. Particularly genuine belief and repentance is necessary to be saved not tongues. God gives His Spirit to those who genuinely believe/repent.

Cornelius was all of that characterization. Yet, God seeing him seeking and hungering for righteousness brought him more.

I've talked to really, really good, decent and nice people who, if you take the conversation away from their salvational issues, aren't as nice when challenged even in the most respectful way.

IMO, it is not always easy to distinguish between a Cornelius and a rich young ruler type character or person.

All I can do is stand in the place where God found me and stay in the place where He leads me.

We talk a lot here, naturally, on these subjects, but I rarely do that in real life. My main point of discussion focuses on faith and prayer - mainly answered prayers. I've seen people have a lot of trust in God from shared stories regarding prayer. That's a witnessing tool for me.