The Security of the Believer

[Timmy]

Gotta love the Bible's "flexibility".

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Luke

There is no scripture to support universalism if taken in context.

If you believe universalism then please answer this question why did Jesus have to die?

So you think He had to die for a very few, but not for the whole? If a house is on fire do you not rescue those inside, even if all are saved?

You see, I am not really a Universalist, I simply believe Jesus died for the whole world.

[Luke]

I agree that He died for the whole world but as a gift if it is not accepted then it does you no good:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Man has free moral choice he can choose to be saved to choose not to be saved.

I asked the question as to belief why Jesus had to die because if you believe that everyone goes to heaven whether they saved or not then why was the death of Christ needed? There would be no need for a plan of salvation because man would simply pass through the lake of fire(purgatory) as you stated and then go to heaven. Therefore for the univesarlist there is no need for Jesus to die.

If you believe that everyone goes to heaven wheather they are saved or not that is universalism unless i am missunderstanding you.
Please explain how your belief differs from universalism.

[PastorTLArt]

Originally Posted by supertone

I think it would be absolutely fantastic if everyone was redeemed and we could all live in the afterlife with our Lord together in peace and harmony... however, I'm not quite sure that is what the Bible teaches. I don't think that I take a harsh interpretation but the verses (as listed previously in this thread) are clear in their meaning and it is a stretch to not take them on face value.

Although I do agree with you against the doctrine of universal salvation, I disagree with you on taking scripture at face value... Many wars have been started, many people killed, many people placed in bondage and many horrible atrocities committed because someone took it at face value. That is why the Word even admonishes us to STUDY, We have to study the Word in its historical context and then interpret it in context with the time we live in. We have to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word!

[Luke]

A very good rule of thumb for Biblical interpretation is:

A uthors
I ntended
M eaning

or as we were taught in Bible college: Scripture can never mean what it never meant.

Scripture never changes neither does its meaning.

[PastorTLArt]

Originally Posted by Luke

A very good rule of thumb for Biblical interpretation is:

A uthors
I ntended
M eaning

or as we were taught in Bible college: Scripture can never mean what it never meant.

Scripture never changes neither does its meaning.

I totally disagree. The actual words never change but the meanings can take
on new forms when applied culturally and with time. We obviously didn't study at the same Bible College.

[Luke]

Then would how can i have any assurance that what i believe is correct. If the meaning of scripture is dependent on the time in which i live then what study tools should i use? Do i have to only use the most modren commentaries? If the meanings change based upon time then does that mean that some things were once sin but now are not sin anymore? The absurdity of this is seen in that if meanings change and therefore sin changes then God would send some people to hell for doing one thing but another person doing the exact same thing could go to heaven all because they were born after the time(sin) change. Imagine the situation on judgement day the one is going to hell and the other is going to heaven suddenly the one on the way to hell says " God this is not fair why can he go to heaven and i have to go to hell when we both did the same thing?" Do you seriously think God will say " luckly for him he was born later than you" ?

Psalms119:89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

[PastorTLArt]

You have totally missed my point. Sin is sin, no matter what or when. But what is sin? It was "sin" for Jewish people to eat pork, make clothes from different fabrics and to touch blood. What happened to that sin? If it is or was a sin for them then God is no respecter of persons, it would have to be a sin for us too. Its no longer considered a sin because we have the knowledge to understand "why" it was considered a sin to them! Times change and meanings change, thats just plain fact! And as to assurance what I believe is correct, well its a little thing called faith. I believed a LOT of things growing up that I now see were just plain bunk. Why, because I have grown, I have learned and I have an open mind and allow the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth!

[Luke]

The illustrations that you offered would all fall under the heading cerimonial law which we are not under. The old testament law is divided into three different groups:

1. The cerimonial law
2. THe civil law
3. THe moral law

We are not under the civil or the cerimonial law but the moral law still applies.

[PastorTLArt]

Your mistaken, Kosher falls under both ceremonial and moral