I am apostolic - Page 8

FlamingZword · #71 12-11-2011, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus stated that, "I (a first person pronoun) and (a conjunction linking two or more) my (first person pronoun) father (second person pronoun) are (present tense PLURAL of "be") one."

Linguistically two persons are in union here.

For example, if I said, "I and my father are in a boat." How many persons are in a boat? Two.

Christ is stressing His coinherent perichoresis with the Father. THEY are one.

One thing alone isn't "one" with anything, it's alone, single. However, two things can be "one" in a categorical sense and thereby establish a "oneness".

Note, Jesus didn't say, "I, the Father, am one."

I give up, no matter how many times God out of his mouth insists that he is one, you trinitarians will insist that he is three.

It is hopeless to quote any scripture, for no scripture is safe from being manipulated and twisted to say the opposite of what it says.

AncientPaths · #72 12-11-2011, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

I give up, no matter how many times God out of his mouth insists that he is one, you trinitarians will insist that he is three.

It is hopeless to quote any scripture, for no scripture is safe from being manipulated and twisted to say the opposite of what it says.

Funny, isn't it. Thank goodness oneness folks never do that

hometown guy · #73 12-12-2011, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientPaths

Funny, isn't it. Thank goodness oneness folks never do that

You are right... We don't do that.

Jacob's Ladder · #74 12-12-2011, 01:31 AM

There are so many trinitarians I'm starting to see three of everything!

Praxeas · #75 12-12-2011, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus stated that, "I (a first person pronoun) and (a conjunction linking two or more) my (first person pronoun) father (second person pronoun) are (present tense PLURAL of "be") one."

Linguistically two persons are in union here.

For example, if I said, "I and my father are in a boat." How many persons are in a boat? Two.

Two human beings. Again answer the question, what KIND of person? See a pronoun does not demonstrate what the definition of PERSON is or what kind

Quote:

Christ is stressing His coinherent perichoresis with the Father. THEY are one.

Funny...I don't see the word perichoresis there.

Quote:

Note, Jesus didn't say, "I, the Father, am one."

No Jesus the Son said "I and my Father are One"

AncientPaths · #76 12-12-2011, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hometown guy

You are right... We don't do that.

Scripture is manipulated (by everyone) to make sure it fits into their specific doctrine. Anyone that says they just take all scripture at "face value" is either already looking at it through their filter, or their just kidding themselves.

Aquila · #77 12-12-2011, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

I give up, no matter how many times God out of his mouth insists that he is one, you trinitarians will insist that he is three.

It is hopeless to quote any scripture, for no scripture is safe from being manipulated and twisted to say the opposite of what it says.

Plain English bro. Jesus said, "I and my father are one." That's two principles that are "one", obviously speaking of being in union. Jesus described this perichoretic union in John 14 when He said, "I am in my Father and my Father is in me". What we see is Jesus explaining that there is a unity of shared being between Himself and the Father.

If I said, "I and my father are in a boat.", "I and my father are in a race.", or, "I and my father are shopping." How many persons are in a boat? In a race? Shopping? Two. That's LANGUAGE. Words have meaning and we must accept what they mean.

I present that perhaps you are the one trying to manipulate this verse and twist it to agree with your theology.

This is wear the rubber meets the road. If you believe in the Bible as it is written. If you believe God chose the exact words to communicate truth in the Bible, you have to believe what the Bible says.... even if it affirms something that is contrary to a theology you were taught. I was a Oneness Pentecostal for nearly 21 years. Trust, me... I know it's gut wrenching. But today, at least I can allow the text to say what it means without needing to iron it out and deny it's plain language.

Here's something to think about. If Jesus is the Father, and there is only one divine person in the Godhead... why didn't Jesus say, "I, the Father, am one?" Now... that's singular in person and speaking of a numeric one. But He doesn't. Jesus says, "I AND my father ARE one."

Aquila · #78 12-12-2011, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Two human beings. Again answer the question, what KIND of person? See a pronoun does not demonstrate what the definition of PERSON is or what kind.

I already answered that question.

Funny...I don't see the word perichoresis there.

I don't either. However, the concept is present. The term "oneness" isn't there either, but you believe it teaches the concept.

Quote:

No Jesus the Son said "I and my Father are One"

Yep... "I and". Don't you forget it.

Aquila · #79 12-12-2011, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientPaths

Scripture is manipulated (by everyone) to make sure it fits into their specific doctrine. Anyone that says they just take all scripture at "face value" is either already looking at it through their filter, or their just kidding themselves.

What if you discovered that the plain language of Scripture contradicted what you were taught your entire life??? Would you have the integrity to change your position, or at least (as I do) present it's plausibility?

Oneness theology is logical. However, it denies that we can trust the plain words "I and my father are..." and redefines them.

Also, if Jesus is merely the Father existing in a second mode of being... why does Jesus speak as though He's another... when He isn't??? That's a philosophical issue I have with that form of Oneness.

AncientPaths · #80 12-12-2011, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

What if you discovered that the plain language of Scripture contradicted what you were taught your entire life??? Would you have the integrity to change your position, or at least (as I do) present it's plausibility?

Oneness theology is logical. However, it denies that we can trust the plain words "I and my father are..." and redefines them.

Also, if Jesus is merely the Father existing in a second mode of being... why does Jesus speak as though He's another... when He isn't??? That's a philosophical issue I have with that form of Oneness.

Agree 100%. There is certainly enough language to present its plausibility. And that's where I stand on it as well. I was raised oneness, and I have strong feelings for that belief, but I think there is evidence that it is often oversimplified for the sake of having a pat, tangible explanation.