When Jesus addressed the issue of the Commandments, He quoted that portion as, "Thou shalt not murder." When you look up the word in the Old Testament, that is the only item that God forbade when it came to killing. Self defense was a legitimate killing. Further, nowhere in Scripture is killing forbidden except in the case of murder. The death penalty handed down to Noah and Moses was never revoked. The duty to protect one's family, friends, neighbors, and their property was laid out in detail in the Law. Jesus never said that it was to be otherwise. There are some portions of that Law that did not cease because Jesus died on the cross. The laws of atonement and sacrifice were abolished, and everything else was strengthened or else left alone.
Further, I trust God that I will make an excellent acquittal of myself when I am attempting to protect those that I love and care for. And I pray that I will not need to use that force for He is going to resolved the situation. As I heard taught, "The time to trust is before you have the emergency, not when you are in the middle of it."
However, as a friend of mine will say, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I know that nothing I have said will change your mind, but I endeavor to refute you so that someone else might take hope in their own self defense.
Jay, anyone can play games with Greek words. What about Christ's ethical teaching, the first two centuries of Christian thought and practice of non-violence, and the biblical record?
Can you find just ONE example of a Christian using lethal force in the NT? Yes or no?
The answer to that is obviously no. But there is then the question of why? Is it because it did not happen, or just that it went unreported. Further, there is no record that Cornelius, a Roman soldier, resigned his post in the military. Also it is stated in Foxe's Book of Martyrs that there was an entire portion of the military that was made up of Christians long before Constantine's order of toleration. They were destroyed to a man because they would not worship the Emperor as a god, and they did not defy his orders that they be killed. All of these men would have been engaged in personal combat. Further, you do not see much in the teaching of either Christ or any of the Apostles about dealing with being accosted on a road or in one's own home. The silence for either position is very telling.
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I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Apostolic in teaching, and Pentecostal in experience.
No one is talking about jumping from a building or refusing to take a boat to safety. We're talking about being obedient in the face of suffering, tragedy, violence, and even death.
Nope we are talking about not shooting someone that is about to shoot you. To some of us that falls into the category of not jumping off a building or not taking a boat to safety. And while I understand your position the fact that you then would compare that kind of an act to martyrdom is ridiculous to the person who views what you are talking about in the same category as refusing to take a boat to safety.
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You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Nope we are talking about not shooting someone that is about to shoot you. To some of us that falls into the category of not jumping off a building or not taking a boat to safety. And while I understand your position the fact that you then would compare that kind of an act to martyrdom is ridiculous to the person who views what you are talking about in the same category as refusing to take a boat to safety.
I believe in being obedient unto death, and through whatever tragedy may befall. However, that is not to say that God has not put it into the hands of men to attempt to avoid that tragedy. I just pray that you are never put to that type of a test.
I will say this much, if you were to go through that, and emerge on the other side safe and without having collapsed to our position, I would be the first to tell you that I am highly impressed, but we can not all live up to the bar that you want to set, nor do I believe that God would expect us to. (BTW, are we not generally on the other side of things when we discuss hair, pants, jewelery, etc. )
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I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Apostolic in teaching, and Pentecostal in experience.
The answer to that is obviously no. But there is then the question of why? Is it because it did not happen, or just that it went unreported. Further, there is no record that Cornelius, a Roman soldier, resigned his post in the military. Also it is stated in Foxe's Book of Martyrs that there was an entire portion of the military that was made up of Christians long before Constantine's order of toleration. They were destroyed to a man because they would not worship the Emperor as a god, and they did not defy his orders that they be killed. All of these men would have been engaged in personal combat. Further, you do not see much in the teaching of either Christ or any of the Apostles about dealing with being accosted on a road or in one's own home. The silence for either position is very telling.
Roman soldiers couldn't simply resign. It's important to note that a great deal of Roman soldiers were tried for treason and executed because they refused to follow orders and shed blood. Christians who served as officials and Roman magistrates were admonished to "surrender the purple" because their office may require them to give an order resulting in the shedding of blood.
Jesus spoke of turning the other cheek and of loving ones enemies. We are admonished not to render evil for evil but to overcome evil with good.
I believe that a Christian puts FULL faith in Christ, choosing Christlikeness in the way of peace even if the result is suffering, tragedy, violence, or certain death. I believe this applies to all circumstances, not just in relation to legitimate governments and official persecution.
Obedience is obedience. Christianity is not a religion for the fearful or the faint of heart. But every individual must find this cross for themselves.
Premeditated unlawful killing of another human being.
OK, that's a good technical definition, I suppose. But how about a Biblical/theological definition? What killing does God consider murder? What exactly does He have in mind in "thou shalt not kill"?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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), how would you define the term "murder"?
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