Official Stance of UPC?

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Very interesting. This is probably one reason why they baptize infants.

they baptize the dead as well sprinkling water over bones, or grave sites

[Pendragon]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

To believe John 3:5 is referring to Water Baptism is heresy. I used to staunchly teach this until someone pointed out the blatant fact, that in John 3:8 Jesus said nothing about the Water.

Jesus plainly pointed out in the illustration that there was a Flesh birth (Water), and a Spirit birth (Spirit). Tradition and Religion will keep old school Apostolics from seeing this because of being indoctrinated with an idea that reflects Eternal consequences. This happens in all Faiths, and fear keeps people from accepting the Truth.

Open your heart and read it for what it is; it's beyond clear.

You are completely wrong.

John 3:3 - Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

John 3:4 - “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

Romans 6:3-4 explains further:
"3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. "

John 3:6 - Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. * Jesus is responding to Nicodemus' comment in 3:4. In other words, we are corrupt creatures of flesh and have no power to be raised in newness of life on our own. The Spirit, however, can raise us up as a new creature. Even if we could be born over and over and have as many 'second chances' at this life as we wanted, we could never measure up. But when we are born again of the Spirit we are a new creature, free of the Adamic bondage to sin.

John 3:7-8 - I'm not sure why you think the lack of inclusion of baptism in this section means it is not necessary. Jesus is describing how the spirit is different from the flesh. It is a continuation of his explanation in 3:6.

The bottom line is that the 'new birth' is a two part process: you die and are born again. Baptism is the symbolic death, and the infilling of the Spirit is our resurrection into newness of life.

Paul makes it brutally clear: "4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." 'In order that' means one must follow the other. Unless you are buried with him through baptism unto death, you cannot live a new life.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

...The bottom line is that the 'new birth' is a two part process: you die and are born again. Baptism is the symbolic death, and the infilling of the Spirit is our resurrection into newness of life.

So I can't be born again until i can get some other person to submerge me in water while he/she recites the "proper incantation"?

That type of "born again" experience would depend on two things:
1. something I do i.e. submit to a ritual
2. some other person performing the ritual correctly

[Pendragon]

Yes, obedience to the scriptures can be bothersome at times, can't it? But the apostles were obedient to this commandment and their obedience is documented many times.

Romans 6

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
...
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

You are completely wrong.

John 3:3 - Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

John 3:4 - “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

Romans 6:3-4 explains further:
"3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. "

John 3:6 - Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. * Jesus is responding to Nicodemus' comment in 3:4. In other words, we are corrupt creatures of flesh and have no power to be raised in newness of life on our own. The Spirit, however, can raise us up as a new creature. Even if we could be born over and over and have as many 'second chances' at this life as we wanted, we could never measure up. But when we are born again of the Spirit we are a new creature, free of the Adamic bondage to sin.

John 3:7-8 - I'm not sure why you think the lack of inclusion of baptism in this section means it is not necessary. Jesus is describing how the spirit is different from the flesh. It is a continuation of his explanation in 3:6.

The bottom line is that the 'new birth' is a two part process: you die and are born again. Baptism is the symbolic death, and the infilling of the Spirit is our resurrection into newness of life.

Paul makes it brutally clear: "4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." 'In order that' means one must follow the other. Unless you are buried with him through baptism unto death, you cannot live a new life.

Sorry, but I disagree. The Water (Natural birth) and Spirit (Spirit birth) were clearly pointed out in these verses.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The Lord clarified the 2 births and we all know we were born in water, first.

Verse 8 says nothing about water in the Spirit birth.

It's beyond easy to see.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Sorry, but I disagree. The Water (Natural birth) and Spirit (Spirit birth) were clearly pointed out in these verses.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The Lord clarified the 2 births and we all know we were born in water, first.

Verse 8 says nothing about water in the Spirit birth.

It's beyond easy to see.

That interpretation of that is beyond idiotic to say the least. To say that you must be born of water, means that people have the chance to not be born of water. Being born of a natural birth is not what the scripture is saying. To say Jesus meant a natural birth is a horrible interpretation of that scripture to a point of denial of the real meaning. A denial of the rest of the biblical symbolism of Death, Burial and Resurrection.

To compare that to "that which is flesh" is also a very bad miss-interpretation.

Take a look at the scripture reading.

Spiritual:
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is(G) born(H) again[b] he cannot(I) see the kingdom of God."
Flesh:
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
Spiritual:
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born(J) of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Flesh:
6 (K) That which is born of the flesh is(L) flesh,
Spiritual:
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7(M) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You[d] must be born(N) again.'

You are having the same issue that Nicodemus was having. Rightly dividing the Word. When Jesus was instructing, it was all Spiritual.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by NorCal

That interpretation of that is beyond idiotic to say the least. To say that you must be born of water, means that people have the chance to not be born of water. Being born of a natural birth is not what the scripture is saying. To say Jesus meant a natural birth is a horrible interpretation of that scripture to a point of denial of the real meaning. A denial of the rest of the biblical symbolism of Death, Burial and Resurrection.

To compare that to "that which is flesh" is also a very bad miss-interpretation.

Take a look at the scripture reading.

Spiritual:
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is(G) born(H) again[b] he cannot(I) see the kingdom of God."
Flesh:
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
Spiritual:
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born(J) of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Flesh:
6 (K) That which is born of the flesh is(L) flesh,
Spiritual:
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7(M) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You[d] must be born(N) again.'

You are having the same issue that Nicodemus was having. Rightly dividing the Word. When Jesus was instructing, it was all Spiritual.

Good post!!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by NorCal

That interpretation of that is beyond idiotic to say the least. To say that you must be born of water, means that people have the chance to not be born of water. Being born of a natural birth is not what the scripture is saying. To say Jesus meant a natural birth is a horrible interpretation of that scripture to a point of denial of the real meaning. A denial of the rest of the biblical symbolism of Death, Burial and Resurrection.

To compare that to "that which is flesh" is also a very bad miss-interpretation.

...

I just don't agree that the way I see that is "beyond idiotic" or a "horrible interpretation." I think in verse 5 Jesus began to answer the question asked by Nicodemus in verse 4. In verse 4 Nicodemus asked, "how can a man be born when he is old?" and then went on with, "can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus tried to show him that He was talking about a second birth not a re-doing of the first birth, so He said, "Except a man be born of water (first birth) and of the Spirit (second birth) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He went on to explain that all humans have been born once, born of water, born into a human family, born of a mother, but that's not good enough they have to be born a second time, or born of the Spirit, or born into God's family, or born of a Heavenly Father, etc. etc. That's the gist of what Jesus says in verses 5-6 and then reiterates in verse 7 that a person has to be born again. This is "the except without exception." Then in verse 8 Jesus compares the action of the wind to that of the Spirit. Wind and spirit are the same word in Hebrew (ruach) and in Greek (pneuma), perhaps referring to the prophesied rebirth of Israel inEzekiel 37 where there was the noise of a wind and the dry, dead bones came together and formed skeletons, then were covered with skin but were still dead until the wind/spirit entered into them and then they stood on their feet alive. In verse 9 Nicodemus asks, "How can these things be?" In verse 10 Jesus seems incredulous that this master in Israel would not be familiar with the prophecy of new life for Israel. Then in verse 11 Jesus tells Nicodemus we know what we're talking about because we know and have seen people who have been born again. From there on until the end of the red letters in verse 21 Jesus explains that salvation/regeneration comes by faith just like years ago the people in the desert looked upon the brazen serpent hanging on a pole and were healed/delivered/saved.

[Sam]

Hey, if you want to see where the idea came from that born of water in John 3:5 means water baptism, look at the notes in a Douay Roman Catholic Bible. There Bishop Challoner (1691-1781) says, "By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism...." And, not only does that teaching have the imprimatur of Bernardus Cardinalis Griffen and publication of the London Catholic Truth Society, it has the concurrence of David Bernard and the hollow echo of several Oneness Pentecostal teachers and preachers and wannabe's.

[Pendragon]

I still don't see Romans 6 being addressed. Scripture interprets scripture, does it not? Why would Paul use the phrase 'in order that' when referring to baptism being necessary for new life?

Romans 6

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.