Faith Without Works...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Abraham would have never offered Isaac if he had dead faith. This shows us that even before Abraham offered Isaac that he had living faith. However, before he offered Isaac he had no works that he could use to show/prove his faith. So while "faith without works is dead", the phrase has a very strict meaning in that just because a person hasn't produced works yet it doesn't mean they don't have living faith. For if Abraham is an example then he clearly had living faith before any of his works.

Thus I conclude that lack of works right now does not reveal a dead faith but only a complacency that if sustained will result in revealing the dead nature of a person's faith. However, it only takes a single work to show your faith is still alive

I don't think I could make that statement as Abram obeyed God and left the Ur of the Chaldees. What you are saying, IMO, contradicts the Word.

"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:" Gen. 12:1

"So Abram departed,..." Gen 12:4

"Faith without works is dead." Abraham's faith caused him to obey God when He asked him to leave his people. There is your living faith and doesn't stand alone.

Thus, the Word stands true - "faith without works is dead, being alone."

[Pressing-On]

You will also note that Abraham was accounted as righteous after his true and living faith/belief caused him to also obey/show forth good works. (Genesis 12:1; 12:4)

Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

He had to believe God, leave where he was in order to come to where God wanted him to be. That is what made him righteous in God's eyes.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If we are saved by faith and works then Paul was clueless when he said "lest any man should boast"...

That is your argument? The context of salvation is BY Grace. Faith is the response to the provision given by God., thus "through faith." works in the context is a contrast of mans strength to do in the flesh vs God' leading and empowering to do. flesh= weak and Spirit = life/power. Faith is based upon context ofthe word. you are judged to HAVE faith by the response to his Word given. Faith alone does not justify which in the context of James is mental assent. Faith that saves is a alive/active response to the Word given and that is judged faithful.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

You will also note that Abraham was accounted as righteous after his true and living faith/belief caused him to also obey/show forth good works. (Genesis 12:1; 12:4)

Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

He had to believe God, leave where he was in order to come to where God wanted him to be. That is what made him righteous in God's eyes.

correct. Gen 15:6 is not about a one moment of belief. James and Paul both show faith to have been judged by time and response.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

That is your argument? The context of salvation is BY Grace. Faith is the response to the provision given by God., thus "through faith." works in the context is a contrast of mans strength to do in the flesh vs God' leading and empowering to do. flesh= weak and Spirit = life/power. Faith is based upon context ofthe word. you are judged to HAVE faith by the response to his Word given. Faith alone does not justify.

That's simply anti-Gospel.

I'll copy from the Sanctification thread, because it was that good:

Its paradoxical:to find our acceptance and forgiveness in our obedience and not in Christ's is disobedient.

And the converse: to find our righteousness and forgiveness, acceptance and favor in Christ obedience and not in ours is the purest form of obedience.

Hence, the famous lines of Samuel ring true here: "to obey is better than sacrifice." When we obey the Gospel, i.e. put our trust in all that God has done for us in Christ, and not in the sacrifices we make, the altars we burn, our work and supposed obedience (which it never really was obedience it was always some mixture of sweat and perfume, a nasty and bloody tampon waved as our banner of goodness before God) we are sacrificing disobediently and not obeying the call to trust Christ's work.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

That's simply anti-Gospel.

I'll copy from the Sanctification thread, because it was that good:

Its paradoxical:to find our acceptance and forgiveness in our obedience and not in Christ's is disobedient.

And the converse: to find our righteousness and forgiveness, acceptance and favor in Christ obedience and not in ours is the purest form of obedience.

Hence, the famous lines of Samuel ring true here: "to obey is better than sacrifice." When we obey the Gospel, i.e. put our trust in all that God has done for us in Christ, and not in the sacrifices we make, the altars we burn, our work and supposed obedience (which it never really was obedience it was always some mixture of sweat and perfume, a nasty and bloody tampon waved as our banner of goodness before God) we are sacrificing disobediently and not obeying the call to trust Christ's work.

within the context of James which I explained further by editing FAITH ALONE does not justify. PEr James Faith alone is mental assent vs doing the context of the commission given to do.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

if you think it is good. I see little value. Typical twisting of imputation doctrine.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

within the context of James which I explained further by editing FAITH ALONE does not justify. PEr James Faith alone is mental assent vs doing the context of the commission given to do.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

if you think it is good. I see little value. Typical twisting of imputation doctrine.

Using James 2:24 as a proof text for this bogus idea that we are justified by works is the epitome of "twisting," Luke.

Follow the trajectory of James' letter. Faith produces works -- in that sense, works are part of that justification. Otherwise, you have a text in James competing with NUMEROUS Pauline texts that say exactly the opposite. These tensions only arise when we try to force them into our grid.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Using James 2:24 as a proof text for this bogus idea that we are justified by works is the epitome of "twisting," Luke.

Follow the trajectory of James' letter. Faith produces works -- in that sense, works are part of that justification. Otherwise, you have a text in James competing with NUMEROUS Pauline texts that say exactly the opposite. These tensions only arise when we try to force them into our grid.

actually it is not competing with Paul. The problem is you don't understand Pauls context of flesh vs Spirit toward in relations to works. That is the whole crux of the matter. Grace the provision given of God which is his Spirit on the heart to do righteousness. Not of mans leaning on his own understanding but the perfection ofthe spirit on the heart of the believer.

Also I find it interesting how you claim one paradigm as we must see this to see Paul when it can be said the other way.

Again as I have said multiple times. FAITH does not produce works. LIVING FAITH IS WORKS/RESPONSE according to the commission of Gods Word to us. the context of JAMES is mental assent and agreement to the knowledge at hand vs ALIVE FAITH. You cannot have ALIVE FAITH and say I don't have a response. They are inseperable. ALIVE FAITH IS RESPONDING properly and judged FAITHFUL.

Also again you don't see what justification is. It is God's consideration/judgment of your reponse. lawless/mental assent or faithfulness ALIVE FAITH.

Nice way to ignore the clear text.

s 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

actually it is not competing with Paul. The problem is you don't understand Pauls context of flesh vs Spirit toward in relations to works. That is the whole crux of the matter. Grace the provision given of God which is his Spirit on the heart to do righteousness. Not of mans leaning on his own understanding but the perfection ofthe spirit on the heart of the believer.

Also I find it interesting how you claim one paradigm as we must see this to see Paul when it can be said the other way.

Again as I have said multiple times. FAITH does not produce works. LIVING FAITH IS WORKS/RESPONSE according to the commission of Gods Word to us. the context of JAMES is mental assent and agreement to the knowledge at hand vs ALIVE FAITH. You cannot have ALIVE FAITH and say I don't have a response. They are inseperable. ALIVE FAITH IS RESPONDING properly and judged FAITHFUL.

Also again you don't see what justification is. It is God's consideration/judgment of your reponse. lawless/mental assent or faithfulness ALIVE FAITH.

Nice way to ignore the clear text.

s 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Rom 5:9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

1 Cor 15 Let me now remind you, dear brothers and sisters,[a] of the Good News I preached to you before. You welcomed it then, and you still stand firm in it. 2 It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you—unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.[b]

1 Peter 2:24 He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By his wounds you are healed.

2 Cor 5:21
For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,[e] so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. 2 Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.

Romans 3:28
So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Your argument seems to be that it's not "works" because it's God's doing. But if we aren't doing, we are judged not because God wasn't doing it, but because we weren't doing it. Yes? Otherwise, everything you've said I'd absolutely agree with you! That is sanctification! We both agree! We are obedient to trusting in God's power alone to save us, and by that we can be overcomers. Any focus outside of that, though we shroud it in Spirit language, is still works-based (if it's delivering the verdict for our salvation). However, we are not judged righteous by our works.

James 2:24 should be read not as a proof text, but in the context of the letter, and seeing the trajectory that James' conviction is that a faithful person will produce good works.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Rom 5:9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

1 Cor 15 Let me now remind you, dear brothers and sisters,[a] of the Good News I preached to you before. You welcomed it then, and you still stand firm in it. 2 It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you—unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.[b]

1 Peter 2:24 He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By his wounds you are healed.

2 Cor 5:21
For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,[e] so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. 2 Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.

Romans 3:28
So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Your argument seems to be that it's not "works" because it's God's doing. But if we aren't doing, we are judged not because God wasn't doing it, but because we weren't doing it. Yes? Otherwise, everything you've said I'd absolutely agree with you! That is sanctification! We both agree! We are obedient to trusting in God's power alone to save us, and by that we can be overcomers. Any focus outside of that, though we shroud it in Spirit language, is still works-based (if it's delivering the verdict for our salvation). However, we are not judged righteous by our works.

James 2:24 should be read not as a proof text, but in the context of the letter, and seeing the trajectory that James' conviction is that a faithful person will produce good works.

You are arguing from a finished work paradigm(RC Sproul, Lutzer) of the cross as our(forensic) righteousness. That is not scripture. Justification is God's consideration of our response to him. Thus it is a practical righteousness through faith in his leading. Sanctification is God's Word given to set you apart. Justification is God's consideration if you are walking by faith/proper response to his Word and judged faithful to it.