Command or commandments?

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

What exactly does this passage mean?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul is telling us that God gave to the church some... the list is what has become the "five fold ministry" to many. Yet this list is nowhere repeated anywhere throughout scripture.

What was that passaged Richmond quoted in the 'mouth of two or three witness" Yet this five fold ministry has become the foundation of the church heigharcy.

Yet in this same book Paul list the heigharcy of the church and does not put in the so called "five fold ministry".

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Now before you go off too bad at me, I want you to concider this.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do we have a differant holy ghost than the "so called ministry" ? Why then do we need to have them instruct us as to how to be saved? Or rather stay saved. You quote this passage in Epehsians and build up the rest of your doctrine that God intended to have overseers over his kingdom and I don't see it.

Paul further gives us teaching on the gifts of the spirit and how they are to work within the church, for exhortation and reproof, and it is not from a preacher behind a podium. I corintians 12.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

How can every man profit from the manifestation of the spirit when there is a dictator between "every man" and the manifistation of the spirit?

I think when Paul had elders appointed in the churches it was to supply guidance, wisdom and order. Corinth especially had a problem with not doing things decently "and in order". I think it's revealing that Paul wanted elders appointed. The greek for this is not heirarchal. The word simply means older.
In Paul's day as it was in the OT and for centuries AD, older saints were revered or looked to for leadership. The churches were guided or led by "olders" with wisdom and life's experiences, not to mention the implication that as elders they would have either known Jesus personally or were contemporaries. So how does Paul's advice to the churches of his day (housechurches) fit into our 21st century western church paradigm?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by sandie

I'm trying to understand your pov.
Here's the first part of John 3:

What was the question? Nicodemus ask if he was to be born naturaly. Yes Jesus knew we were born naturaly of water. He simply answered the question Nic ask by saying, You must be born of Water ( mothers womb) and be born of spirit (born again).

How is just believing being born again?

How is being baptized in water being born again? The word no where speaks of baptism as a birth. It speaks of baptism as a burial.

How much plainer do you need to see things? You can't have both messages in one passage without the fact you must have translated things wrong. You can't translate the first part as an action when the later part refutes and action. Nic was having trouble understanding the new birth. Jesus was using natural things to help him understand and he still was not getting it. Jesus told him all he had to do was believe, in what?, the comming of the Messiah who came to give new life and relationship with God.

Water baptims is not spoken of here, in the third chapter of John, water baptism is not and never has been spoken of as a birth. We are not born of water spiritualy we are buried with him in baptism.

Thanks for listening.

Sabby you don't have to be a bible scholar to understand the bible, that is what man wants you to believe that you have to have a spiritual leader to intrerpret the word, because we are just to stupid to understand the word without at least carring a ministerial license and being indorsed by some organization that has some sort of training.

That is so bogus, God promised in OT the time would come when he would come into the hearts of man and that the word would be in each heart that no man would teach his neighbor for the word would be in each heart. This same prophecy is spoken in Hebrews as being fulfilled in our day. If you want to believe everything passed down by the pastor just because it seems to make sence, that is ok, but don't expect to have a deep personal relationship with God, as it is hard to hear his voice when you have mans voice and tradations clamering around your head.

[Godsdrummer]

When we take the bible for what it is a guide book for finding relationship with God, and examples of what can happen when we turn from God. And build the Kingdom of God and not our kingdoms maybe with all that love, God can join into being, one body of believers.

[sandie]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Sabby you don't have to be a bible scholar to understand the bible, that is what man wants you to believe that you have to have a spiritual leader to intrerpret the word, because we are just to stupid to understand the word without at least carring a ministerial license and being indorsed by some organization that has some sort of training.

That is so bogus, God promised in OT the time would come when he would come into the hearts of man and that the word would be in each heart that no man would teach his neighbor for the word would be in each heart. This same prophecy is spoken in Hebrews as being fulfilled in our day. If you want to believe everything passed down by the pastor just because it seems to make sence, that is ok, but don't expect to have a deep personal relationship with God, as it is hard to hear his voice when you have mans voice and tradations clamering around your head.

Perhaps you overlooked what I said in the last paragraph? (btw, I'm presuming you meant me, Sandie and not Sabby)

I take God's Word at face value and study it out (for myself) the best I know how.
God and I have had some very wonderful Bible studies when it's just Him and I in my kitchen.
I don't believe everything I hear, God even spoke to me about that several years ago. There's a Scripture, I believe it's in Proverbs that says not to believe everyone you hear...of course, that's probably a poor paraphrase. But, the point is I know God gave me a brain and His Word and nearly every single morning He and I talk and study.
You might be surprised to learn that the last three pastors I've had/have are not "three steppers" and the one I have now is a trinitarian.

I have complete trust and faith that when God gave me His Spirit and promise that He would lead and guide me into all truth that He meant what He said.
I hope I have the mind of Christ "clamoring around in my head".

Thanks for your interest and response.

[Godsdrummer]

Sandie

Yes I did mean you, and I did not catch the last paragraph, LOL Sorry it does seem as if you are on the right road. I will tell you this it has been many years to get where I am now, from three stepper to what I beleive now Many things have just come to me in the past few years, after I came to understand that the organization I was raised in did not in fact have the whole truth as they reported to have.

Keep going the way you are going you will be fine.

God bless.

[sandie]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Sandie

Yes I did mean you, and I did not catch the last paragraph, LOL Sorry it does seem as if you are on the right road. I will tell you this it has been many years to get where I am now, from three stepper to what I beleive now Many things have just come to me in the past few years, after I came to understand that the organization I was raised in did not in fact have the whole truth as they reported to have.

Keep going the way you are going you will be fine.

God bless.

I want to be on the road Jesus called narrow. Sometimes I feel far from it, but that's when I need to trust the Saviour all the more.
God bless you too.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Rev.Richmond

Good evening MissB,
I suppose you are correct......if your prophets are in the flesh. But if they are in The Spirit, then The Spirit is subject unto the prophet(s) in whome it is operating through. Paul was attempting to set some order and give understanding to those who seemed to be causing confusion due to their ignorance and disorderly conduct, if you will, though it was with good intentions. Concisley concluded in this verse: (12) Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. I think that he was try to let them know that basically "though you really feel it, consider what you're about to do, try your best to edify and do all things decently and in order."

I Corinthians 14:32 doesn't say "spirit" singular; it says the "spirits of the prophets."

I've heard this teaching before. A former pastor of mine quoted the verse as saying, "The Spirit is subject to the prophet", and used it to claim that he could curse rebellious people if he chose. He believed that whatever he prophesied or spoke, God would honor it and make it come to pass. Do you believe that?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I Corinthians 14:32 doesn't say "spirit" singular; it says the "spirits of the prophets."

I've heard this teaching before. A former pastor of mine quoted the verse as saying, "The Spirit is subject to the prophet", and used it to claim that he could curse rebellious people if he chose. He believed that whatever he prophesied or spoke, God would honor it and make it come to pass. Do you believe that?

Yup, that's what it says alright.

[Rev.Richmond]

Originally Posted by Rev.Richmond

Good evening MissB,
I suppose you are correct......if your prophets are in the flesh. But if they are in The Spirit, then The Spirit is subject unto the prophet(s) in whome it is operating through. Paul was attempting to set some order and give understanding to those who seemed to be causing confusion due to their ignorance and disorderly conduct, if you will, though it was with good intentions. Concisley concluded in this verse: (12) Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. I think that he was try to let them know that basically "though you really feel it, consider what you're about to do, try your best to edify and do all things decently and in order."

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I Corinthians 14:32 doesn't say "spirit" singular; it says the "spirits of the prophets."

I've heard this teaching before. A former pastor of mine quoted the verse as saying, "The Spirit is subject to the prophet", and used it to claim that he could curse rebellious people if he chose. He believed that whatever he prophesied or spoke, God would honor it and make it come to pass. Do you believe that?

No, I do not believe that. Sounds like he was trying to remote-control God. No way.

Do you agree with the fact that a prophet must wisely demonstrate the gifts of the spirit....and if there is more than one...then they must all be careful with their spirits (plural), though it be the same spirit of God in several people? In the spirit or out of the spirit; see what I'm saying?

I really dont think we're too far from agreeing.
Hope ya have a good night.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Rev.Richmond

No, I do not believe that. Sounds like he was trying to remote-control God. No way.

Do you agree with the fact that a prophet must wisely demonstrate the gifts of the spirit....and if there is more than one...then they must all be careful with their spirits (plural), though it be the same spirit of God in several people? In the spirit or out of the spirit; see what I'm saying?

I really dont think we're too far from agreeing.

Yes; I think what the passage means is that the person who possesses a gift is in control of its use. If that's what you mean, then we do agree.

Hope ya have a good night.

Likewise!