HMD, Coon & DKB recognize past failures

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by DAII

I don't think DKB thinks it's a sin or "rebellious" anymore to wear a beard ... in addition, to the Executive board now allowing beards on the General Conference platform ... his son, a drummer at the church, wears one or at least has sported one for awhile ... (You gotta love Facebook )

I'd post a picture but I don't want Pelathais going into encephalopathic fits

and it's "pelathais." "pelathais."

... oh, and it's encephalitic.

Have I managed to offend everyone on AFF yet this summer?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by DAII

...

Also there is a recognition by both that 3rd, 4th and 5th generation UPCIers are leaving and the only way to deal with it is to reach new 1st generation converts and "grow our way out of it" ....

Coon further states that in those churches going a different direction it's the 1st generation members that find another UPCI church.

How effective is the identity campaign if it cannot survive cross-generationally? Retention would seem to be a dire need if this is the case.

...

I agree with you here. It would seem that the "Identity Campaign" is a complete bust before it even got rolled out.

Those who are born and raised in OP churches to "First Generation" converts tend to be better educated than their parents, particularly with regard to the Bible. If you can't "win" someone who already knows you, you've got real problems.

This part of the Bernard/Coon conversation just sounds like Amway or Pre-Paid Legal shop talk. People who have already been chewed up by multilevel marketing are the least receptive to its sales pitch. And now, the UPC faces the same burn-out?

Why not switch to a product that has been a demonstrated winner for the past 2,000 years? One that you don't have to invent a history for?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I agree with you here. It would seem that the "Identity Campaign" is a complete bust before it even got rolled out.

Those who are born and raised in OP churches to "First Generation" converts tend to be better educated than their parents, particularly with regard to the Bible. If you can't "win" someone who already knows you, you've got real problems.

This part of the Bernard/Coon conversation just sounds like Amway or Pre-Paid Legal shop talk. People who have already been chewed up by multilevel marketing are the least receptive to its sales pitch. And now, the UPC faces the same burn-out?

Why not switch to a product that has been a demonstrated winner for the
past 2,000 years? One that you don't have to invent a history for?

I think the internet, social network media ... the information age has accelerated the "virus of show me that in the Bible" 1000x fold.

Couple this with Charnock's observation that new churches are by necessity more lax on the rules ... while the org is relaxing the process for new churches to be planted in various districts ... while also encouraging growth "at any cost" ... and I have to think that things will begin to loosen up by default.

Pelathais.

[tssp]

Originally Posted by Sam

You mean, move the goal line to where the ball is?

Exactly!

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by DAII

I think the internet, social network media ... the information age has accelerated the "virus of show me that in the Bible" 1000x fold.

Couple this with Charnock's observation that new churches are by necessity more lax on the rules ... while the org is relaxing the process for new churches to be planted in various districts ... while also encouraging growth "at any cost" ... and I have to think that things will begin to loosen up by default.

Pelathais.

SO the response is some Village People flexing (reference to The Village).

One minister, quite notorious, has been known to often say "others don't know anything, they are neophytes and ignorant people." Then standing proudly, grabbing his lape, he'd throw in a couple 4 syllable words and tell you how smart he is... and that in the end, it's not about smarts, it's about obedience... after the obedience hammer it's about people losing out *cue horror music*....

Fear, Obedience, Claims of Elite Knowledge, elite access to the Spirit,

If they were going for scary, I'm scared.

[geekette]

What does the UPCI offer to people to entice them to come to church--that they can't get anywhere else?

Has Home Missions considered that?

Just to give an example:

I have a friend who did his Master's thesis on why a whole village in a South American country up and converted to Mormonism in the mid-1970s. It was not so much out of belief. It was because, as he discovered, they got some real, tangible benefits out of being Mormon. These might seem very small to us, but to impoverished indigenous people, they were huge.

* The Mormon church offered to finish building their partially-built chapel (and did). (There was a complicated story around that chapel.)

* The Mormon church brought in ways for people to make money (such as sewing machines for the women).

* Becoming Mormon took this village out of the local "fiesta" system, which was a rotating celebration of saint's days that had to be celebrated with lots and lots of alcohol, which cost lots and lots of cash--cash that the villagers simply did not really have. Paying tithing, by comparison, was cheap and the tithing could be paid in produce.

Doctrine really didn't matter so much to this village, although they adhered to Mormon peculiarities. But, as he told me, the way the villagers saw themselves as being Mormon was very different than the way that prosperous North Americans might see themselves as being Mormon.

So, what does the UPCI have to offer potential attendees that they can't get elsewhere?

* Exuberant worship
* Belief in Jesus Name
* Strong Preaching
* Bible teaching
* and, even some people might appreciate the holiness standards.

But, with so many other choices out there, why should someone choose UPCI?

Maybe that's what Home Missions needs to think about.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Consider what is asked of a young minister in the UPC.

First, when he feels a call to preach, he is told to attend an unaccredited UPC Bible College. He is asked to pay thousands of dollars (around 20k) to earn a theological or ministerial degree which is as worthless as the paper it's printed on.

As time progresses, and he attempts to earn a living while fulfilling his calling, he finds that 1) very few ministers are full time and, 2) secular employers have no desire to hire a worker with an unaccredited theological or ministerial degree.

This creates frustration, and a feeling of betrayal.

Later, as he becomes increasingly uncomfortable in his home church, and wants to branch out on his own, 1) his pastor will tell him that it is not God's will, 2) his pastor will give him a bit more string but still maintain control, 3) he will branch out on his own with absolutely no financial support.

In all of these situations he is asked to foot the bill entirely. He receives little to no support. All while he becomes increasingly aware of theological inconsistencies within the movement he serves.

You just summarized my entire walk in this post brother.

[Maximilian]

I would hope the villagers didn't "convert" out of what they were getting out of it. At the same time, I can see our faith being expressed in more concrete terms than empty rhetoric when we are coming and showing love. This can lead people to discipleship in Jesus. That said, I think it'd be great for any missions organization to think about that.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Consider what is asked of a young minister in the UPC.

First, when he feels a call to preach, he is told to attend an unaccredited UPC Bible College. He is asked to pay thousands of dollars (around 20k) to earn a theological or ministerial degree which is as worthless as the paper it's printed on.

As time progresses, and he attempts to earn a living while fulfilling his calling, he finds that 1) very few ministers are full time and, 2) secular employers have no desire to hire a worker with an unaccredited theological or ministerial degree.

This creates frustration, and a feeling of betrayal.

Later, as he becomes increasingly uncomfortable in his home church, and wants to branch out on his own, 1) his pastor will tell him that it is not God's will, 2) his pastor will give him a bit more string but still maintain control, 3) he will branch out on his own with absolutely no financial support.

In all of these situations he is asked to foot the bill entirely. He receives little to no support. All while he becomes increasingly aware of theological inconsistencies within the movement he serves.

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

You just summarized my entire walk in this post brother.

I'm sorry to hear that. It's my story too.

In addition to the things I've already mentioned, I see very little actual soul winning, discipleship and retention. In my region, over the past five years, I cannot think of one person who has come into the church, completed all three steps, and conformed to all of the holiness standards.

People do come in, they do complete the three steps, but I don't see conformity like I used to.

There is a lot of shuffling between churches, a lot of reconfiguration and repackaging, but precious little new growth.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The ministerial roster is growing simply on the basis of awarding preaching licences correct?


If that assumption is correct, and based on my limited experience, a license can be obtained by anyone willing to read a list of books, or anyone who has attended Bible "college", which in my again, limited experience, has been that some of these folks attending Bible college are somewhat flaky, seeming rather to prefer what they thing is a career of paid preaching over the actual responsibility of getting a job. When they find out that's not how it works, many of them are simply lay people with preaching licenses.

In the end you have a bigger "roster" but fewer churches, and all the bigger or established churches are either 1)leaving the org or 2)going liberal, ignoring the teachings of the org, while NOT leaving. The end result is that there continues to be a steep decline in "quality" ministers and "quality" churches, (I use quality for lack of a better term).

In short there isn't any growth, so they produce dime a dozen young ministers eager to get a preaching license as their proof of "growth".

Very good observations. Everything you've said is true. Now couple that with this generation of ministers' complete disregard for the ethical boundaries of the previous generation and you have complete chaos.