Err on the side of caution?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Could you share the specific words of Christ that you derive this from?

ask and you shall receive...

Mat 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Mat 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it. ESV

[192281]

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

the word of god ,from god ,,,,gave us pastors to watch out for our souls..\

now that doesnt mean saints are dummmies and cant read ,,as he gave us ,teachers ,evangelists also ,prophets ,,he did it for the perfecting of the saints ,,

god established this so the church could be adn go the way he prescribed...\

now there is good and bad pastors and others...saints were referred to in the bible as sheep ,,,when they loose the ability to follow ,,,the soon seperate from the others and are easy prey for the wolf..

i always had a pastor ,before i became one ,,,,did i agree with evevrthing he did ,, nope ,, but i did know he was doing what he thought best ,for our church and for me ...what more could i ask for ?

if a man is seeking god ,and following him,, if i was not pastoring myself i would follow him. it is gods way ,it is gods plan.

I agree that God gives us Pastors and that they are there to lead and guide us but at the same time we have to make sure we arent being lead blindly. As it has been said numerous times already, there comes a point in ones life where you have to study scripture for yourself and make sure the shepard you have is leading you in the right direction. Sometimes you are as safe with the wolf as you would be with the shepard.....Just sayin!

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

ask and you shall receive...

Mat 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Mat 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it. ESV

Okay, so you take one parable of Christ's, and determine that salvation is something that WE purchase, NOT what Christ purchased at Calvary? That, my judaizing friend, is anti-Christ!

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by 192281

I agree that God gives us Pastors and that they are there to lead and guide us but at the same time we have to make sure we arent being lead blindly. As it has been said numerous times already, there comes a point in ones life where you have to study scripture for yourself and make sure the shepard you have is leading you in the right direction. Sometimes you are as safe with the wolf as you would be with the shepard.....Just sayin!

And you need to make sure that God DID give you that pastor, not just because the pastor proclaimed it. Question question question! Do it in the right spirit of course but don't take anything for granted -respect and trust is earned, not demanded. If he (the pastor) says "because I say so" or "because I am the pastor" when asked about a certain rule, leave and shake the dust off of your shoes on the way out.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jim H

Okay, so you take one parable of Christ's, and determine that salvation is something that WE purchase, NOT what Christ purchased at Calvary? That, my judaizing friend, is anti-Christ!

cart before the horse. So you negate God's Word for some mindset that makes Christ's words absurd! My case in point! Thanks for your response. You clearly did not read what I said and relate it to scripture. Christ DID "obtain" authority which is PURCHASING salvation by his work on the cross. BEcause HE puchased it doesn't mean YOU HAVE IT! He gives stipulations TO OBTAIN IT! THat's called covenant/agreement!

Purchase...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/purchase
1 a archaic : gain, acquire b : to acquire (real estate) by means other than descent c : to obtain by paying money or its equivalent : buy d : to obtain by labor, danger, or sacrifice

To say we do not purchase salvation would be to negate what Christ did in itself and ignore his words. The word purchase is a term which in general denotes a exchange of value between at least two parties. On one side we stand wanting to obtain "eternal life" like the rich young ruler and on the other side is the man of whom holds all eternity. He asks to do His commandments and to leave all and follow Him. The price tag has been laid on the "offering." To obtain the legal transaction or purchase you must deny thyself of family and everything you have. Notice it's not a transaction of just one moment but that of a lifetime.

Christ did us a favor(Grace) he chose to die on a cross because he loved us. So that he could provide a offering/provision or also termed "the gift" of salvation. This is "offered" to all freely who choose to give up all(sacrifice) and follow him. It is free as he is no respect of persons which has been true from the beginning. Yes he did obtain the rights to death hell and the grave but because he has them doesn't mean you have obtained salvation or eternal life. In the end he will judge every man according to what he has done or not and will judge you faithful to the purchase price or not. As the complete reality is not known until he says "Well done thou good and faith"ful" servant."

[192281]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

And you need to make sure that God DID give you that pastor, not just because the pastor proclaimed it. Question question question! Do it in the right spirit of course but don't take anything for granted -respect and trust is earned, not demanded. If he (the pastor) says "because I say so" or "because I am the pastor" when asked about a certain rule, leave and shake the dust off of your shoes on the way out.

AMEN TO THAT.
I asked my Pastor why he thought it was necessary for us Men not to have facial hair and why he made it a rule in the church. His answer was "there are no biblical explanatins but since the Board ask us not to then we should just do as they ask". This obvioulsy made me question many more things he taught and within months I was gone. If a Pastor can't back something up with Bible then he shouldnt make it a church RULE...

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

ask and you shall receive...

Mat 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Mat 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it. ESV

This is a pretty long discourse from which you cherry picked these scriptures. It will require quite a few scriptures below to bring the scriptures you have provided into context but I will limit my quotation as much as is possible.

In the first series of scriptures below I need to establish where the conversation had taken it's beginning. Jesus was sharing parables with the crowd. Among them was the parable of the tares & the wheat.

Mat 13:24 KJV - Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 KJV - But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 KJV - But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 KJV - So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 KJV - He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 KJV - But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 KJV - Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Then he continued on with the parable of the mustard seed...

Mat 13:31 KJV - Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 KJV - Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof

.

The he continues with the parable of leavened bread.

Mat 13:33 KJV - Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

All the things that Jesus spoke that day were in parables that he might fulfill scripture.

Mat 13:34 KJV - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 KJV - That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Mat 13:36 KJV - Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

The disciples asked Jesus to explain the parable of the tares to them and he begins to do so...

Mat 13:37 KJV - He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 KJV - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
Mat 13:39 KJV - The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 KJV - As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 KJV - The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 KJV - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 KJV - Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

He continues on to give other parables concerning the Kingdom of Heaven (in keeping with the parable he had just explained)

Mat 13:44 KJV - Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 KJV - Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 KJV - Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 KJV - Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 KJV - Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

After explaining the tares parable and then giving several additional rapid fire parables concerning the Kingdom of Heaven he summed it all up for them...

Mat 13:49 KJV - So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

These scriptures you provided are not about we... God's people... paying for our salvation. This is about the Kingdom of Heaven and the end of the world and it is stating that the tares have to stay with the wheat, the land must be bought to gain the treasure, the nets draw in the good and the bad etc but in the end God will gather what is his.

All of these parables were given in the context of the conversation and to take them out of their context and use them to further some doctrine they were never intended for is reckless and fool hearty.

The reckless and fool hearty should not lead.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

cart before the horse. So you negate God's Word for some mindset that makes Christ's words absurd! My case in point! Thanks for your response. You clearly did not read what I said and relate it to scripture. Christ DID "obtain" authority which is PURCHASING salvation by his work on the cross. BEcause HE puchased it doesn't mean YOU HAVE IT! He gives stipulations TO OBTAIN IT! THat's called covenant/agreement!

Purchase...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/purchase
1 a archaic : gain, acquire b : to acquire (real estate) by means other than descent c : to obtain by paying money or its equivalent : buy d : to obtain by labor, danger, or sacrifice

To say we do not purchase salvation would be to negate what Christ did in itself and ignore his words. The word purchase is a term which in general denotes a exchange of value between at least two parties. On one side we stand wanting to obtain "eternal life" like the rich young ruler and on the other side is the man of whom holds all eternity. He asks to do His commandments and to leave all and follow Him. The price tag has been laid on the "offering." To obtain the legal transaction or purchase you must deny thyself of family and everything you have. Notice it's not a transaction of just one moment but that of a lifetime.

Christ did us a favor(Grace) he chose to die on a cross because he loved us. So that he could provide a offering/provision or also termed "the gift" of salvation. This is "offered" to all freely who choose to give up all(sacrifice) and follow him. It is free as he is no respect of persons which has been true from the beginning. Yes he did obtain the rights to death hell and the grave but because he has them doesn't mean you have obtained salvation or eternal life. In the end he will judge every man according to what he has done or not and will judge you faithful to the purchase price or not. As the complete reality is not known until he says "Well done thou good and faith"ful" servant."

So is it a gift? Or is it a product that we purchase?

I understand the principle that you're conveying here. And I think that I'm in agreement to an extent with your application. But aside from obedience to His commandments, there's nothing I can do to purchase salvation. I'm not making Christ's words absurd, but think your literal application of a parable is absurd.

We do good works because of our faith in response to grace, but good works are not an installment payment against a GIFT I've already received.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jim H

Okay, so you take one parable of Christ's, and determine that salvation is something that WE purchase, NOT what Christ purchased at Calvary? That, my judaizing friend, is anti-Christ!

you have cast off the teachings of Christ for a theological fallacy and misapplication of scripture. He that hath not the doctrine of Christ is non of his!

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

you have cast off the teachings of Christ for a theological fallacy and misapplication of scripture. He that hath not the doctrine of Christ is non of his!

And still more arrogance from a know-it-all legalist/pharisee/judaizer. I'm not the one using proof texting scriptures out of their context and application and saying they mean something they don't. You are the one with the theological fallacy.