The Legalist on Covenant

[Jeffrey]

In fact, that passage is one of Paul's primary evidence for the inclusion of Gentiles to also call Abraham "the father of all believers."

According to rabbis, it was 29 years from the time with Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness (Gen 15) to the time he was circumcised (Gen 17).

[Jeffrey]

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[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Romans 4:9-12

How can anyone still believe baptismal regeneration after these words by Paul (and in the fuller context of Romans for that matter?)

For we are saying, "Faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness." How, then, was it reckoned? When he was circumcised or when he was yet uncircumcised? It was not when he was circumcised but when he was uncircumcised. And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of righteousness of faith that was his when was was uncircumcised....

Pretty clear that circumcision, seen by many OP's as the old Baptism, is not the moment was righteousness is imputed, but rather before this happens, at faith.

1) imputation is generally a misued word. "considered/calculate/reckon"

his faith was judged "righteous" This scripture is about judgment of action or response. Has nothing directly to do with "salvation" Abraham had faith before Gen 15:6 in Gen 12. Thus this wasn't some great appointed time in which abraham FINALLY had faith. It's simply a narrative comment from the writer talking about in view what would happen and that God judged his response/faith, righteous/just.... "thus the scripture was fullfilled in Isaacs offering" with respect to Gen 15:6 according to James. This scripture is about God judging a response just. In which he already had faith before hand in Gen 12. what is the significance then and now. The writer is simply saying what he knew that Abraham believed God. "believed God" is with Abraham's life in view not just that moment. God judges the faith "just" or "not" which is James point.

why can I believe Baptism within the context of Romans.... hmmm well because Pauls talk about the reality that happens IN BAPTISM in Romans 6. It isthe appointed time. It according to Paul in colossians is the time of the reality of CHrist SPIRITUALLY cutting away of the flesh/old man from us (the body of judgment and sin) how FAITH IN THE OPERATION/WORKING OF GOD.

God says I am going to circumcise your sins in baptism... you say great and do it by faith that he will do what he said e would do and that is SAVE YOU FROM YOUR SINS!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

1) imputation is generally a misued word. "considered/calculate/reckon"

his faith was judged "righteous" This scripture is about judgment of action or response. Has nothing directly to do with "salvation" Abraham had faith before Gen 15:6 in Gen 12. Thus this wasn't some great appointed time in which abraham FINALLY had faith. It's simply a narrative comment from the writer talking about in view what would happen and that God judged his response/faith, righteous/just.... "thus the scripture was fullfilled in Isaacs offering" with respect to Gen 15:6 according to James. This scripture is about God judging a response just. In which he already had faith before hand in Gen 12. what is the significance then and now. The writer is simply saying what he knew that Abraham believed God. "believed God" is with Abraham's life in view not just that moment. God judges the faith "just" or "not" which is James point.

why can I believe Baptism within the context of Romans.... hmmm well because Pauls talk about the reality that happens IN BAPTISM in Romans 6. It isthe appointed time. It according to Paul in colossians is the time of the reality of CHrist SPIRITUALLY cutting away of the flesh/old man from us (the body of judgment and sin) how FAITH IN THE OPERATION/WORKING OF GOD.

God says I am going to circumcise your sins in baptism... you say great and do it by faith that he will do what he said e would do and that is SAVE YOU FROM YOUR SINS!

First of all, I don't see "imputation" in this text. That's a loose word interpreters have used for "reckoned."

Second, no, he wasn't given salvation because he did something. That's what Paul is setting up in vv. 4-5. God is not indebted to us.

v6. David talks about the blessed man who is credited as righteous apart works.

He quotes the Psalm "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

This blessedness is for everyone. Paul proves this by tearing down the false idea that righteousness comes by circumcision. He is explicit: it comes by faith.

The focus of Rom 4 (or any of Paul's emphasis for that matter) is not Abraham's doing, it's Abraham's believing (vv. 18-25)

Your statement: This scripture is about God judging a response just is unfortunately inconsistent with the theme of the entire chapter (and letter for that matter)

Regarding baptism: again, don't you preach that baptism is a type of circumcision? If so, how do you continue to believe baptismal regeneration? And don't throw a straw man at me, we all believe in baptism.