Here is a simple diagram that can help us understand the proper distiction and terms of Father and Son from Oneness scholar Jason Dulle. Notice, "divine nature" and "Father" are not exactly synonymous terms - even though they both do reference God Himself.
Oneness balks at calling Yeshua the Father. This is a definite trend. I wont go along with it.
Read this carefully:
6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6
Note the bold words. Does not this verse say PLAINLY the Messiah is BOTH.
FATHER AND SON.
That is the doctrine of Christ. If one denies Yeshua is the Father they are denying he is the Biblical Messiah.
9: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
What shocking news! The "revelation" that Oneness believers have is NOT that Jesus is the Father! Unreal. What has become of the Oneness that believed Jesus was/is both the Father and the Son.
The revelation I got was exactly that.
I never said Jesus was not the Father. What I did say was, I'm not convinced that Paul, or any other apostle, would be comfortable saying that Jesus is His own Father
Maybe you could give scripture for exactly that? Sure, "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father"( because He came from God).... His name shall be called everlasting Father.... Jesus said He'd be a Father to the orphanless... My point was, Paul never used such language as "Jesus was HIS OWN Father, or, Jesus was His own Son, or Jesus Fathered Himself. That kind of "lango" isn't in the bible. But this kind of "separated distinction"is:
Ex: Gal. 1:1 Paul an apostle..., but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father who raised him from the dead.(I know: Jesus said destroy this temple, and 3 days I will raise it, my point of separation remains) Please view below, and then answer my highlighted question. Thanks again.
Romans 1:7 Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ Rom. 15:6That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and
one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Cor. 1:2Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ 2 Cor. 1:3Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Eph. 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph. 3:14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph. 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
Col. 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints
2 Thess. 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
1 Tim 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2 Tim. 1:2 Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our
Philemon 3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
And that "distinction lango" he used was well after "oneness John"(& others) had the Holyghost.
__________________ If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart...
Abraham Lincoln
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. - Eph. 4:29
Oneness balks at calling Yeshua the Father. This is a definite trend. I wont go along with it.
Read this carefully:
6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6
Note the bold words. Does not this verse say PLAINLY the Messiah is BOTH.
FATHER AND SON.
That is the doctrine of Christ. If one denies Yeshua is the Father they are denying he is the Biblical Messiah.
9: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
I have already addressed Isaiah 9:6 and what it is NOT saying.
2nd John 9? No doubt, if someone denies Christ He denies both the Father AND the Son - Jesus is the only way to God. And conversly, if one accepts and abides in Christ he Hath both the Father and the Son. One simply cannot claim Christ without claiming him as God - even the same God as His Father in Heaven. The only way to recieve the Father is to recieve the Son, who suffered and died on our behalf.
Again, this is NOT saying Jesus is the Father and the Son. I see the Father/Son distinction as being external rather than internal of Jesus Christ.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I never said Jesus was not the Father. What I did say was, I'm not convinced that Paul, or any other apostle, would be comfortable saying that Jesus is His own Father
Maybe you could give scripture for exactly that? Sure, "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father"( because He came from God).... His name shall be called everlasting Father.... Jesus said He'd be a Father to the orphanless... My point was, Paul never used such language as "Jesus was HIS OWN Father, or, Jesus was His own Son, or Jesus Fathered Himself. That kind of "lango" isn't in the bible. But this kind of "separated distinction"is:
Ex: Gal. 1:1 Paul an apostle..., but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father who raised him from the dead.(I know: Jesus said destroy this temple, and 3 days I will raise it, my point of separation remains) Please view below, and then answer my highlighted question. Thanks again.
Romans 1:7 Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ Rom. 15:6That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and
one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Cor. 1:2Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ 2 Cor. 1:3Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Eph. 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph. 3:14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph. 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
Col. 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints
2 Thess. 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
1 Tim 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2 Tim. 1:2 Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our
Philemon 3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
And that "distinction lango" he used was well after "oneness John"(& others) had the Holyghost.
Shag I think you are on the right track here. I enjoy your contribution/research.
If we read "Father/Son" everytime we see the words "Jesus Christ" many scriptures become nonsensical.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Thats it! When was it the world did not know the Father? Could it be when Yeshua was here on Earth?
Also consider this:
28: And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 John 2:28-29
Do we abide in Jesus? Is he the one that will appear? Is he righteous?
If you answered yes to these questions take note who you have been born of in verse 29.
We are BORN OF JESUS!
If we are BORN OF HIM I take that as meaning he is the Father.
Could it be that Jesus being our Father is the VERY SAME FATHER as in the very next verse?
1 Jn. 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
If we were BORN OF JESUS in the preceeding verse how could he not be the Father in this verse?
If Jesus is the Father, then Jesus is his own God.
Prooftexts of this: Ephesians 1:3 says "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ..." Clearly this shows our Lord Jesus Christ had a God and Father. His God and Father could not be himself else you would be claiming that God has a God and we know that God has no God.
Hebrews 1:8-9 says of Christ "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed the with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." The Son is spoken of as having a God. Sounds kinda odd to say the Son is God, but he has a God. God has no God!
If Jesus is the Father, then Jesus is his own God.
Prooftexts of this: Ephesians 1:3 says "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ..." Clearly this shows our Lord Jesus Christ had a God and Father. His God and Father could not be himself else you would be claiming that God has a God and we know that God has no God.
Hebrews 1:8-9 says of Christ "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed the with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." The Son is spoken of as having a God. Sounds kinda odd to say the Son is God, but he has a God. God has no God!
Just wanted to clarify, we must be very careful about referring of the humanity of Christ as divine. His humanity was never and will never be divine.
Ok let me ask just one more time to those in the thread.
What was the "revelation" you received when you received "the revelation"?
Here's my revelation. He is the 1 invisible God of the old testament, that came in the likeness of man & as a man in every way and every way tempted yet without sin, for the purpose of becoming the final and ultimate spotless sacrifice for sin, to reconcile men back to God, and thereby renting the great "veil" between God and man.
He is God revealled in the flesh - 1 Tim -3:16
as the Christ(Messiah), the Son of the Living God. Which comes by revelation according to - Matt. 16
and He is the expressed image of the unseen God.- Heb. 1:3
because no man has seen God ever at any time - John 1:18
43:3 I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour -Is.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? 14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel....
15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
the only wise God our Saviour- Jude 1:25
__________________ If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart...
Abraham Lincoln
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. - Eph. 4:29
Ok let me ask just one more time to those in the thread.
What was the "revelation" you received when you received "the revelation"?
I do not recall personally claiming divine "revelation" - though I do recall others saying about me "He really got the revelation". Christ was revealed to me when He opened my eyes to my incredible sin and His ability to utterly take it all.
As a convert to Pentecostalism I have always been appalled when insinuations are made that "we" serve a different God, or "they" serve a plurality of gods. I pray to the same Jesus I have prayed to since a small child - He has always been exposed and revealed to me.
When my time comes, I am comforted in knowing I am going to be with Jesus, and will also rejoin with friends and family who have died in Christ. It is not disturbing to me that all in Christ are not Oneness Pentecostal - in fact, given our own divisions, I find that most comforting as well. Our hope is in Christ Jesus - not perfection in doctrine and discipline.
That is not to say there aren't many important secondary issues we have debated through the years - just that God is greater than our intellect of him.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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